Utah Guns Forum banner
1 - 20 of 186 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Today I went out to Office Max in St. George, Utah were I was OC’ing for the 5 time since I received my permit 2 weeks ago. Just to say, I have OC in Wells Fargo and US Back this week and last week with NO Issues!

So, I was in Office Max looking for a printer with my wife. We were there for about 15 minutes. When I noticed out of the corner of eye a LEO walked in. Walked around me first and then approached me asking if I was a LEO. I of course said, NO. But, I am a CFP holder for the State of Utah. The LEO went for my gun on my waist and asked me to go out side.

While outside the LEO run my report. Nothing found. Wait, back up comes. Great! The LEO’S told me it was against the LAW to Open Carry in the State of Utah and asked me if I was aware of that.

So I told the LEO’S that in the State of Utah there is NO LAW against Open Concealment in Utah. Then the LEO’S told me on my permit it says “Concealed” not open carry.

So, to prove me wrong the LEO’S went to there cars to look up the Laws and go from there. About 45 minute’s later, nothing. They have calls out to the FBI in Utah and to other LEO’S to see what to do.

I told them about opencarrry.org and once they opened the site and went to Utah, what did they find, that Utah you can open carry, lock, loaded and ready to rock.

So, they kept me there for another 30 minute’s to see what they can Site me with.

I was never asked to leave Office Max or anything. I was not brandishing my weapon at all. My shirt must have come up over my gun and a customer called and said she was scared for her and her kids.

So after about 1 ½ hours, nothing, no satiation, nothing. Just a warning. The LEO’S told me that could give me a Class B satiation for orderly misconduct for putting fear into the public.

So after all that, the LEO’S that came were cool, not rude or anything. They just did not know the Law.

I was carrying a Spring Field XD Sub .40.

Let me know what you think, any suggestions. That would be great.

Thank You
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
You did nothing wrong, they are just ignorant. :shades:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So, if they were ignorant, why did they keep trying to just my balls? They were trying to get me with mis-counduct, putting fear into the public. If they did, how do you fix that in court?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
230 Posts
Shaolin said:
You did nothing wrong, they are just ignorant. :shades:
Yep. Sounds like you did just fine.

It's a shame ignorant police officers can detain you and waste two hours of your time for no good reason. :disgusted:

Hopefully your experience helped educate them so others won't have to go through the same experience.

They were busting your balls because that's what some cops like to do - usually the ignorant ones. They seem to think that it's a sign of weakness or something for them to show up and not cite somebody for something.

As far as court, I think they would have a hard time getting a conviction since it sounds like you did nothing disorderly, and did nothing wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,195 Posts
cityslicker5413 said:
So, if they were ignorant, why did they keep trying to just my balls? They were trying to get me with mis-counduct, putting fear into the public. If they did, how do you fix that in court?
You can always sue the officers involved for harassment of a citizen lawfully going about his business.
You can contact the Police Captain and request a formal apology from the department and the officers involved as well as demand/request that their officers receive on the job training concerning the carry laws, both open, concealed and the CFP laws of Utah.
If neither gets anywhere you can always go to the paper or the TV and let them no of the abuse you received. I would consider abuse to include keeping you tied up under their thumbs while they search for any minuscule item they could write you up for, to be abuse.
The police may have authorization to detain you for a bit however when they try to run a darned fishing expedition up your rear just so they don't look stupid they are stepping over a line. You have rights and they are obligated to obey those rights. These rights come from the Constitution of the US of A and also the Constitution of Utah. They go and in hand and you did nothing wrong.
If worse comes to worse and you find you are being followed, watched or otherwise harassed in the future because of this, then by all means get a lawyer and stop the abuse before everyone in town with a legal CFP, or who open carries lawfully starts being harassed in a like manner.
If education and following the rule is what we all must do you have every right to demand that the local constabulary educate themselves too. At the least you may help them to not look like a bunch of Red-Neck Teenagers hopped up on a ego trip.
Whatever you decide, you did nothing wrong! Keep up the great work!
Also--Get a copy of Mitch Vilos' book on Utah Gun Laws III. I can't remember the exact name now, but you should be able to get it at the local gun shop or perhaps at Barnes and Nobles. It would be an Excellent investment.
Also, one of the forum members put out a pdf here on this site (http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/9b878f76fd.pdf) which you can print out and carry with you in pamphlet form. It contains the most pertinent laws to be concerned with when carrying in Utah. Look it up, print out a copy and keep it with you.
Good Luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
I would certainly raise @#[email protected] with the police department and maybe demand an appology. I would request that they need to have a talk with the department of public safety and need to reanalyze they're training. You should of course say all this in a professional compliment sandwich sort of way. They should not get away with that sort of behavior. Not for what you were doing. It behoves me to want to send in a letter myself too. I hate that sort of treatment and stupid threatening manners. I'm not a lawyer but I asked Mitch Vilos the question over "disorderly conduct" one time. He mentioned that you have to actually be causing a threat or follow under the requirements for such a charge. Ocing is not enough. But police can charge you with anything they want. It does not mean its going to hold up in court. A semi competant lawyer and any judge would have that thrown out immediately, assuming you were only doing what you say you were doing. This crap is unexcusable!!! Ticks me off!!! I had a police officer threaten to take me to jail one time because I would not let him search my trunk!!!. I asked him to give me a valid reason. He claimed that my CCW permit was valid reason. Its not!!!. Blood dripping from my trunk...YES...A permit...NO. Needless to say they have been corrected. I would get on with a letter or discussion to the captain or duty officer atleast. You can direct them to the BCI and to the AG for comment over the law. Incidently, when I first discussed Open Carry with a sgt at the BCI, he said that several times in west haven I think, officers have cited people with disorderly conduct for ocing in public. But it did not make it into court as the judge threw them out as soon as they reached his desk. Abuse of authority really tirks me off and makes all the good LEO out there look bad!!!. More the reason to give a talk to st. george.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
Additionally, here is the e-mail contact for both the st. george police cheif and captain of the patrol division. I would suggest a formal letter or in person meet with the chief for the person invovled, but this is for anyone else who wants to fire away a reminder comment that OC is legal to said persons. Cheers!!!

Police Cheif
[email protected]

Patrol Division Captain
[email protected]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
cityslicker5413 said:
So, if they were ignorant, why did they keep trying to just my balls? They were trying to get me with mis-counduct, putting fear into the public. If they did, how do you fix that in court?
I think they were messing with you because you had a Springfield XD. If it were a Glock, you wouldn't have had any problems. :wink: All kidding aside, if you ever do get a written apology from anyone in the department, I would carry it with me should you experience any more issues in the future.

Although I agree that folks have the right to OC, knowing my luck if I OC I'll get stopped on a day where I don't have any time for BS. If I do OC, I'll be sure that I'm alone, don't need any grief from the family because I was stopped by some poorly trained LEO.

gf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,928 Posts
cityslicker5413 said:
Let me know what you think, any suggestions.
My suggestion is to keep your weapon concealed. You didn't do anything wrong, but there are some people who are paranoid of guns and think that all people who carry are dangerous. THEY ARE WRONG. However, I think we can save ourselves from a lot of hassles (and in your case, a lot of time explaining yourself to the police officers) by simply keeping our weapons out of their view. I believe that in doing so, we can still fully exercise our right to keep and bear arms. It's different if you don't have a CFP. But, if you have one, why not take full advantage of it by concealing your firearm.

Again, YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. I'm just sharing my opinion on how we can avoid unpleasant confrontations.

Dustin
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,791 Posts
cityslicker5413 said:
... I was OC’ing for the 5 time since I received my permit 2 weeks ago....

.... The LEO went for my gun on my waist ....

... My shirt must have come up over my gun ....
2 questions:

1. I am confused. Were you intentionally OC'ing or did you inadvertantly OC by your shirt coming up over your gun.

2. Please describe "The LEO went for the gun on my waist." I am really curious to know the specifics of what happened here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,331 Posts
Definitely send a letter to the chief and (this is vital) to the internal affairs department or representative. The chief can (and probably will) just throw the letter away, but internal affairs is required (in most cases) to address complaints. I'd simply document the law (and lack thereof), indicate that you were harassed while legally going about your business due to ignorance of the law by the officers, ask them to contact BCI and/or the attorney general's office to verify the law, and request that all officers receive training on the law so they do not put themselves at risk of a lawsuit from you now or others in the future. Demand that they provide documentation of when/how this training is provided.

I too am not a big fan of open carry, but it is ignorance like this that is the primary reason why we SHOULD open carry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,203 Posts
76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
(2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.
(3) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.
It would be be a tough sale to try to peg you on Disorderly conduct. And even if it did somehow stick unless you kept doing Whatever it was you were doing it is still just an infraction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
You really need to send a letter to the police chief asking for an apology as well as training for the officers. This will prompt them first figuring out the correct laws, then a training meeting to inform their officers of better ways to handle the situation.

Otherwise you're going to have more problems like this in the future. If you live in the city, you should do it for your own benefit in the future more than anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
P.S. Send a written, printed letter. Not an email. Printed letters carry more weight with people because they take longer to write and send.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
230 Posts
I would definitely try to raise a stink with the police department. I'm cynical and seriously doubt it will get you anywhere, but I would try anyways.

Dustin WJ said:
cityslicker5413 said:
Let me know what you think, any suggestions.
My suggestion is to keep your weapon concealed. You didn't do anything wrong, but there are some people who are paranoid of guns and think that all people who carry are dangerous. THEY ARE WRONG. However, I think we can save ourselves from a lot of hassles (and in your case, a lot of time explaining yourself to the police officers) by simply keeping our weapons out of their view. I believe that in doing so, we can still fully exercise our right to keep and bear arms. It's different if you don't have a CFP. But, if you have one, why not take full advantage of it by concealing your firearm.

Again, YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. I'm just sharing my opinion on how we can avoid unpleasant confrontations.

Dustin
I definitely agree with this. I've open carried a time or two, but for the most part I don't have the time or inclination to deal with the hassle of people staring and whispering (which happened when I OC'ed), and I CERTAINLY don't have the time or inclination to spend 2 hours educating a couple jerk cops on the laws they are already supposed to know. Whenever I've OC'ed, I've done it understanding and accepting the possibility that i'll be hasseled for it. The easy solution is to just carry concealed and go about your business.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
PW said:
cityslicker5413 said:
... I was OC’ing for the 5 time since I received my permit 2 weeks ago....

.... The LEO went for my gun on my waist ....

... My shirt must have come up over my gun ....
2 questions:

1. I am confused. Were you intentionally OC'ing or did you inadvertantly OC by your shirt coming up over your gun.

2. Please describe "The LEO went for the gun on my waist." I am really curious to know the specifics of what happened here.
1. I was not intentionally OC'ing. My shirt must of come up over my gun. My gun was coverd when I walked into the store.

2. When the LEO went for my gun, it was after he asked me if I was a LEO. He went for the gun and asked if it was chambered. He removed the clip from the gun and locked the barrel of the gun back. .
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,167 Posts
So he disarmed you without your permission? Oh man... I would write one nasty note to the department with a copy to the attorney general and my lawyer. You don't just grab someone's gun unless they are trying to use it against you - that's a HUGE no-no and a HUGE safety issue - not to mention it's a good way to get shot. :evil:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
GeneticsDave said:
So he disarmed you without your permission? Oh man... I would write one nasty note to the department with a copy to the attorney general and my lawyer. You don't just grab someone's gun unless they are trying to use it against you - that's a HUGE no-no and a HUGE safety issue - not to mention it's a good way to get shot. :evil:
So hold on, you are telling me that when I was disarmend with out my permission, that is a Big NO-NO? I did not know that. I thought you had to do or let a LEO do job. If it was anyone else, of course not, I would not let me disarm me. I thought I had to do anything the LEO wanted.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,791 Posts
cityslicker5413 said:
GeneticsDave said:
So he disarmed you without your permission? Oh man... I would write one nasty note to the department with a copy to the attorney general and my lawyer. You don't just grab someone's gun unless they are trying to use it against you - that's a HUGE no-no and a HUGE safety issue - not to mention it's a good way to get shot. :evil:
So hold on, you are telling me that when I was disarmend with out my permission, that is a Big NO-NO? I did not know that. I thought you had to do or let a LEO do job. If it was anyone else, of course not, I would not let me disarm me. I thought I had to do anything the LEO wanted.
Tell us specifically what happened. Your statement is not very clear. Did he just grab the gun? Did you unholster and hand it to him? Did he have you spread em and touch the wall? What words specifically did he say? What did you say? Tell us EXACTLY how this went down. "He went for the gun" just isn't very clear. EXPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, a cop can disarm you without your permission. Cops have a right to remove your gun, so until you can accurately descibe to US what happened, don't get your panties in a wrinkle quite yet. Basically yes you have to do whatever the LEO instructs you to do. Some may scream civil rights violation but thats not how the law works. Before we get in that discussion you really need to explain CLEARLY how everything went down in very specific terms. Until then I'm not making any judgement or opinion.

You need to be clear also. Your original post said you were OC'ing, but then you went on to say that you had inadvertantly exposed your gun (your shirt accidently came up). You clarified that yes it was inadvertant. I would not call this OC'ing though so you shouldn't refer to it as such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,203 Posts
I would suggest looking into a lawyer at this point. Many will listen to your story and let you know if you have a case for free or very cheap. There are too many question to ask to decide if a letter is your best option or a lawyer, but from what it sounds like there were a lot aof BIG no-no's that happened.
 
1 - 20 of 186 Posts
Top