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In The Herald Journal Friday is this headline: "Measure to allow open carrying of guns fizzles". The article begins: "Guns covered by concealed weapons permits will still have to be, well, concealed. "

I know from reading on this forum that many of you are of the opinion that open carry is legal, and I agree. However, it seems that there is mixed opinion on the matter.

The permit is called: Concealed Firearm Permit.

Does this imply that the weapon has to be concealed? Can you be charged and convicted on an implication? If not where does everyone get the idea that it is illegal to carry open?

My other question is: Has any one ever been arrested, charged and found guilty, or not, for carrying openly with a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit?

Is there a case to cite?

Does our media need some education?

If it really is legal to carry open, what did we need SB473 for any way?

:???:
 

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James,

Without a doubt, open carry in Utah is legal. I base this on the following:
1) Utah State Law contains *NO* reference making OC'ing illegal
2) Utah State Law FORBIDS CC'ing (without a permit)
3) Utah State Law recognizes an individual's Right to keep AND BEAR arms (Utah State Constitution)
4) Utah State Law defines a "loaded" weapon as having a round in the chamber
5) Utah State Law states that a person can NOT carry a "loaded" weapon around in public
6) Therefore, in the absence of (1) and being forbidden to do (2), and considering (4) and (5), there is absolutely NO WAY a person can practice (3) WITHOUT being allowed to OC.

I also refer you to this link which is an audio recording of the Utah State "House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee" debating HB473 on the 18th of Feb. It contains some of the most respected State Rep's and best-versed in the Utah State gun laws, along with the Utah State Attorney General, all testifying that Utah does and always has allowed OC (even though, they acknowledge, it has never been EXPLICITLY outlined). Particularly noteworthy is the USAG when he states (I'm paraphrasing here) that in general the legal system operates under the principle of "if it's not disallowed, it's allowed".

You are right that the PUBLIC OPINION is mixed. THAT is the need of HB473 -- because people just don't understand what that audio link clearly explains. Yes, according to the USAG, there are even POLICE DEPT's who are operating under the false notion that OC is illegal (he came right out and stated that that was one reason HB473 was needed).

Yes, the permit is called "CONCEALED" -- but if you read the law regarding the permit you will find that it does NOT state that you MUST conceal -- all it states is that you are EXCUSED from abiding by the statutes which DISALLOW CC.

The permit ALSO says "FIREARM" -- but, again, if you read the law you will find that it specifically allows for concealment of OTHER dangerous weapons, NOT merely firearms.

Another good point made by Clark Aposhian during that hearing I cited above is that the CC statute also allows a person to carry their weapon LOADED. But that DOESN'T mean we *HAVE* to carry loaded (just as allowing us to conceal DOESN'T mean we *HAVE* to conceal). He also pointed out that the permit allows us to carry ON SCHOOL PROPERTY. But , he argued, that doesn't mean that any time we are on school property we MUST BE carrying heat.

In other words, all the permit does is give us MORE OPTIONS. It doesn't REQUIRE anything.

Yes, according to the USAG, a few people have been arrested or cited for OC'ing. According to him, none have yet been found guilty.

Yes, our media needs education. They are no better, if not worse, than the general public on this issue.

HB473, IMHO, should be our rallying-point. I have been considering bringing this topic up but just haven't yet. A few months ago a thread was started on this forum of how to better "advertise" the forum and/or provide public-ed regarding our 2A Rights. I would like to suggest here that the time is ripe. The anti-2A'ers are going to be back next session. You can bet they'll have more HB473 tricks up their sleeves. I really think we should all consider how we might create a fund to drive a public-awareness campaign here in Utah. Yes, we could all pitch in some $$$, but I'm also sure that a lot more could be had from gun shops, pro-2A attorneys, legislators, NRA and other like-minded groups, etc.

(mind you, I'm not volunteering to lead the job... simply put, I just don't have the time being in school full-time+, but I *AM* willing to put my money where my mouth is and pitch-in)

Any thoughts????
 

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The news media are notorious for getting their facts wrong, particularly when it comes to gun laws and the right to keep and bear arms.

I'm not surprised by the HJ's assertion, just disgusted as usual.

I think that the impetus for this bill was because the U of U, as usual, is trying to enforce gun rules that the law does not allow them to do. They are specifically banning open carry.
 

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James said:
In The Herald Journal Friday is this headline: "Measure to allow open carrying of guns fizzles". The article begins: "Guns covered by concealed weapons permits will still have to be, well, concealed. "

:???:
In past experience, the Herald Journal is notorious for mis-quoting and embellishing the truth. Therefore, it would not surprise me to see an article in the HJ that are not entirely (or some cases not even close) to being accurate. (My apologies if any of you work for HJ)
I also agree wholeheartedly with bane. We need to make sure the anti-gunners don't turn this state into another California.
 

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The Herald Journal? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! I always thought that sorry excuse for a paper was called "The Logan Liar." I didn't know it was even still in circulation. :ack: :ack: :ack:
 

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Logan Liar. ROTFLMAO :lol:
 

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PW said:
The Herald Journal? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! I always thought that sorry excuse for a paper was called "The Logan Liar." I didn't know it was even still in circulation. :ack: :ack: :ack:
Yeah. I remember calling it that more than 30 years ago. I don't think anything has changed much.

The only reason that we subscribe to it is because my wife wants it. :oops:
 

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While the news has always been inaccurate at best, in the last decade or so most news agencies have even stopped even trying to report the truth and only will report what gives them ratings.
 

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For those that read it, does it have an opinion colum that you could write to saying that the editorial or article was not fully correct?

Maybe a blitz of letters to the editor would set the readers straight that might believe the article.
 

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James said:
The permit is called: Concealed Firearm Permit. Does this imply that the weapon has to be concealed?
Anyone that believes that a Concealed Firearm Permit requires concealment, needs to stay off the sidewalk if they have a drivers license. I mean, once you get a drivers license, you are no longer allowed to walk anywhere, right?

As far as I'm concerned, open carry is a non-issue in Utah. Unless you live in West Valley City. :wink:
 

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SGT Jensen said:
Unless you live in West Valley City. :wink:
SGT, I'm not challenging your statement... I'm just unsure what you meant... I live pretty close to WVC and am wondering if I'm missing something that I should be aware of???
 

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bane said:
SGT Jensen said:
Unless you live in West Valley City. :wink:
SGT, I'm not challenging your statement... I'm just unsure what you meant... I live pretty close to WVC and am wondering if I'm missing something that I should be aware of???
UTOC-45-44 had an officer point a weapon at him in West Valley simply for because he took his Kimber for a walk. :shock:
 

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SGT Jensen said:
bane said:
SGT Jensen said:
Unless you live in West Valley City. :wink:
SGT, I'm not challenging your statement... I'm just unsure what you meant... I live pretty close to WVC and am wondering if I'm missing something that I should be aware of???
UTOC-45-44 had an officer point a weapon at him in West Valley simply for because he took his Kimber for a walk. :shock:
:copcar:
 

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I have at times carried open and have never had a problem.
We won't get the HJ in my home.
 

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I'm still waiting for my concealed carry permit, so open carrying is my only option right now. No one has given me any problems about it.
 

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SGT Jensen said:
bane said:
SGT Jensen said:
Unless you live in West Valley City. :wink:
SGT, I'm not challenging your statement... I'm just unsure what you meant... I live pretty close to WVC and am wondering if I'm missing something that I should be aware of???
UTOC-45-44 had an officer point a weapon at him in West Valley simply for because he took his Kimber for a walk. :shock:
I remember him telling us the story at one of the Luncheon Meets in Dec. There were quite a few LEOs there that day he got stopped.
 

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I remember reading an article when I moved down here to Utah about those strapping their gun to one hip and putting a baby on the other. It was all open carry and it was a big deal, but nothing against it (didn't not that it was against the law, that is). I know my boss for an armed guard company carries his either concealed (first meeting) or open (second meeting). Either way, to me, seems fine.
 

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Outsider said:
I remember reading an article when I moved down here to Utah about those strapping their gun to one hip and putting a baby on the other. It was all open carry and it was a big deal, but nothing against it (didn't not that it was against the law, that is).
...
You must mean this article: Packing heat, no apologies

That was regarding this UCC forum event (in conjunction with OCDO): Photos from the Red Robin meet!
 
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