[Guest]

I cannot find a clear answer on whether or not it is legal to open carry in utah. I know you can in the woods and on private property, but I need to know about public. I am just wondering because of the whole scare of printing.

Thanks in advance,

K.

 

[concealedutah]

http://www.bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFLCarry.html
Tells us that:
"It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on any public street without a permit."
Which should mean that it IS lawful to carry "Loaded" with a permit.

Utah code 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. Seems that if it ISN'T loaded, then State preemption says your fine.

I saw someone open carry once really.. At a skippers resturant. I just took note of it, and noticed no one else was even nervous.

But you're right, it IS a little vague. Clark often can chime in on these type questions. They covered it pretty well in class, but that was a while ago.. I don't worry about them as I have a permit, but don't choose to carry "open".

If you are printing, I wouldn't worry, because you COULD open carry and be fine, so no one can really hammer you much for it. In Utah the Printing issue is pretty much a non-issue, unlike some states, where if you print, they act like you were "brandishing".

I find that I FEEL like I am printing, but I suspect you'd really be hard pressed to see it unless you were looking, and I don't think anyone who doesn't carry looks.

 

[Guest]

That was my fear, the "brandishing." Thanks for the clarification. I can stop worrying.

 

[Red_Dragon]

From my years at the Sheriff's Office (Utah County), I was always told that Utah is NOT an open carry state. Now I'm not sure. I based it off of the following code:
76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.

(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
But that is without a permit, but the permit is for a "concealed" weapon. I don't know anymore.

Red Dragon

 

[Car Knocker]

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session

 

[blackpuma]

... I was always told that Utah is NOT an open carry state.

Well, we have to go off of law, not hearsay. Unfortunately the pertinent sections of code are scattered all over kingdom come.

... a person may not carry a loaded firearm:

I've always understood that there is nothing prohibiting open carry "unloaded."

 

[Mr. Magnum]

Open carry always has been legal in Utah. As has been said already, a round can't be chambered ext.
When I do it there is no round chambered & the safety is engaged, thus I must pull the slide & disengage the safety (2 steps) before the gun can be fired.

I've never had a problem when I've open carried around Sheriff's deputies or city cops here in Utah County. :?

I did notice that it made one young rookie Sheriff very nervous one time. He kept looking at the .44 desert eagle on my hip then back to the 9mm on his hip. I think it was just a size envy thing or that big guns frighten him or something. He nor the older Sheriff with him made an issue of it though.

 

[heavykevy]

... but the permit is for a "concealed" weapon. I don't know anymore.

Red Dragon

The permit is called a concealed permit, but nowhere in the Utah law is there a requirement for the firearm to be concealed (if you can find or cite one post it here). The permit just exempts a holder from not being able to carry a loaded firearm on the street (76-10-505), carrying a firearm on school property (76-10-505.5), and carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle (also 76-10-505).

Also, this is not from me directly so it is heresay, but from THIS website I quote the following info given from the BCI.

had a discussion with a Deputy Chief of the BCI in regards to the Concealed Firearms Licensing Statute. There were two reasons why I contacted them:

1. In regards to Utah Statute 76-10-1507, whether or not CFL holders were actually exempt from that particular statute, and if they aren't, is only concealed firearm carry covered (a la Virginia Restaurant Carry)

2. Whether or not the Concealed Firearm Statute imposes a duty or requirement to conceal the firearm that you are carrying.

He couldn't get me an answer to the first question yet. The second question was answered in the negative. There is no duty for Concealed Firearm Licensees to carry their firearm concealed. He did note that I may have more police contacts, and that he questioned my reason for wanting to open carry. I told him that's more of a philosophical and tactical question and not a legal one, and that there are two diametrically opposed camps. He understood.

 

[Jeff Johnson]

It seems we now have two threads in which this question is being asked. I'll post here what I posted there...

It is certainly my understanding that there is no requirement to conceal the firearm when carrying with a CFP.

If you want to search the Utah statutes, check this thread for a good start. Notice my disclaimer in that thread. I am not a lawyer.

You can open carry, and I have done so many times. If you have a CFP, you can legally carry loaded. If you don't have a CFP, then it must be legally unloaded. The definition of loaded has already been quoted in this thread.

 

[Sambolijah]

Remember, if the law doesn't say it's illegal, it's usually legal.
I've open carried in Utah county without any problems.

 

[Cinhil]

For the benefit of Barchetta02, there is no law at this time, in Utah, concerning brandishing. It was attempted to prove it when Super Dell was being charged for his self defense, and the jury could not convict on that because we have no law on it.
As far as open carry--100% perfectly legal--the benefit a ccw packer has is that they do not have to worry about whether their weapon is "loaded" or not by the legal definition, as the legislature allows us the right to carry with our weapon loaded-regardless.
:lol:

 

[blackpuma]

... the legislature allows us the right ...

Government allows us the right... those are just sick words.

A license is permission to do something which is otherwise unlawful; it is a contract which lowers your status from free man to subject, member, or slave.

I don't know the source for that one, but also relevant:

The U.S. Supreme Court broadly and unequivocally held that requiring licensing or registration of any constitutional right is itself unconstitutional.

- Follett vs. Town of McCormick, S.C., 321 U.S. 573 [1944]

 

[Cinhil]

Interesting--and I agree, BlackPuma.
Perhaps I should have said tha the Utah legislature acknowledges our God-Given right to carry, therefore they have made that acknowledgement a point of law.
Of course, I may not have the wordiing down properly--but we all have an inherent right to self defense, to carryiong for that protection, as well as a right to defend ourselves from government infringement upon our rights.
You other quotes were good too. Most especially concerning the SCOTUS stating that any law which infringes on oour rights is not a lawful law and may be ignored--paraphrased, more or less.

 

[blackpuma]

... I should have said tha the Utah legislature acknowledges our God-Given right to carry, therefore they have made that acknowledgement a point of law.

IMHO if this were true, we wouldn't need a permit (a license). As I see it, Vermont / Alaska carry is an acknowledgement of a right, i.e. we need not seek permission from any authority, and the government protects us from harassment by government employees.

The convoluted laws about having a gun in a car is another example of the Utah State legislature's disrespect.

(I'm not trying to beat you up. I'm just trying to clarify my point.)

... to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, ... whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter ... it,

- Declaration of Independents

 

[Cinhil]

Cinhil wrote:
... I should have said tha the Utah legislature acknowledges our God-Given right to carry, therefore they have made that acknowledgement a point of law.

IMHO if this were true, we wouldn't need a permit (a license). As I see it, Vermont / Alaska carry is an acknowledgement of a right, i.e. we need not seek permission from any authority, and the government protects us from harassment by government employees.

The convoluted laws about having a gun in a car is another example of the Utah State legislature's disrespect.

(I'm not trying to beat you up. I'm just trying to clarify my point.)

Quote:
... to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, ... whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter ... it,

- Declaration of Independance

Don't worry, you're not beating me up--I actually agree with you. Unfortunately in order to exercise our rights in this, the present day, we have been forced to acquiece to unreasonable & infringing "rules" "laws" etc. If we were still living in the society created by our forefathers none of this would be necessary.
I carry because I want to be secure. I know that that security will not come from the government, or from the police, or from the Sheriff, therefore I choose to take what steps I am forced to take in order to gain the peace and security granted through our constitution. A right which is God-given.

 

[David Nelson]

> From: [David Nelson]
> To: [email protected], [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
> Subject: COMPLAINT: Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson
> Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 04:58 PM
>
> June 3, 2007
>
> Chief Chris Burbank
> Salt Lake City Police Department
> 315 East 200 South
> Salt Lake City, Utah 84111-2106
>
> Re: COMPLAINT: Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson
>
> Dear Chief Burbank:
>
> This message is my complaint against Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson for his official on-duty actions with me on June 3 at about 10:30 a.m. near 450 South 200 East.
>
> As a co-founder of its parent corporation, I purchased an admission ticket and attended the gay Utah Pride Festival (a public-accommodation event which was produced wholly on public property). As the owner of the gay Stonewall Shooting Sports of Utah group, I'm also an advocate for the U.S. Constitutional Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. This is well known and wouldn't surprise an average event patron.
>
> As a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit holder, I possessed and carried my firearm unconcealed, but holstered, at the event. I never unholstered it or displayed in a threatening way. In fact, my firearm was unloaded according to state laws (no chambered cartridge). I carefully reviewed the advance published event rules; they didn't prohibit my possession or unconcealed carrying.
>
> After I presented my ticket to a main-gate staffer and entered the event, security staffers and organizers met me and asked about my possession and unconcealed carrying. I answered their questions simply and truthfully, and told them that: 1) state laws and event rules didn't prohibit my possession and unconcealed carrying, 2) my possession and unconcealed carrying was legal according to state laws which govern CFP weapons whether concealed or unconcealed, and unloaded firearms, and 3) I was uncomfortable concealing my firearm voluntarily. As a Utahn with disabilities who uses a cane, my possession and unconcealed carrying is as much a visual deterrent of violence as it is a more responsive and reliable mode of carrying if I need it.
>
> The staffers and organizers didn't tell me I was in violation of any laws or rule, or that I was trespassing. They confirmed and knew I was a ticketed patron, but asked Lt. Isakson to detain and question me anyway. I answered his questions simply and truthfully, and told him that: 1) state laws and event rules didn't prohibit my possession and unconcealed carrying, 2) my possession and unconcealed carrying was legal according to state laws which govern CFP weapons whether concealed or unconcealed, and unloaded firearms, and 3) I was uncomfortable concealing my firearm.
>
> Isakson told me that: 1) the "premise" of state CFP laws requires a weapon to be concealed, 2) he was "concerned" that the public "might be threatened" by seeing my firearm, and 3) despite agreeing that I hadn't violated any laws, he'd enforce my ejection from the event for these reasons. I replied that state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500 among others prohibit and preempt "a local authority … [from enforcing] any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property," Ignoring the laws, he opened SLCPD report 07-98871 and noted my CFP identifying information despite it being irrelevant and unnecessary for my possession and unconcealed carrying of an unloaded firearm. He told me that he'd send an unsolicited copy of his report to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification for their review, and that "one sure way to lose [my] permit is to abuse it like this." His implication seemed clear to me: He was intentionally jeopardizing my CFP. He then asked me "to leave" the event property. It was the first such request of me by anyone involved in the matter, and I left immediately.
>
> I believe that Isakson's actions were: 1) grossly and specifically violative of state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500, 2) generally mistaken of state CFP laws, and 3) generally negligent of the SLCPD Code of Ethics by which he'd "respect the constitutional rights of all." He was notably professional in every other respect.
>
> Chief Burbank, please reply to this message and answer these three questions:
>
> 1. Did Isakson violate the state laws 63-98-102 and 76-10-500?
>
> 2. Did Isakson mistake the state CFP laws as they relate to any requirement to conceal?
>
> 3. Did Isakson neglect the SLCPD Code of Ethics?
>
> Please also confirm to me that 1) all SLCPD law-enforcement officers know, understand and obey the state laws that refer specifically to the right to keep and bear arms, and preempt their authority when it "inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms" differently than state laws do.
>
> I request finally that Isakson's report be immediately and administratively resolved in my favor with copies delivered to BCI and me (considering the unusual circumstances of this matter, I request these copies be provided according to public-records laws and free of charge), and that he apologize to me for his wrong actions in at least as public a way as he committed them when he and his motorcycle subordinate detained and questioned me for about 30 minutes while many event staffers and other patrons watched. I believe you'll agree that such extraordinary actions aren't only illegal and wrong, but also require extraordinary responses.
>
> Thank you for your deliberate and prompt reply. Please contact me if you have comments or questions about this message with which I may help you.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> David Nelson
> Salt Lake City
>
> cc: Utah Attorney General Mark L. Shurtleff
>
> Salt Lake City Attorney Ed Rutan
>
> Operations Bureau Commander Assistant Chief Terry A. Fritz
>
> Special Operations Division Commander Capt. Kyle Jones
>
> Investigations Bureau Assistant Chief C. Scott Atkinson
>
> Internal Affairs Division Commander Capt. Robert Linton

 

[Udink]

COMPLAINT: Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Rusty Isakson

Wow David, very nicely written letter. Please keep us informed of any response (or lack thereof) that you receive. It's too bad that you were singled out by the event security and the SLCPD officer, though I'll bet it's happened to others who have not had the wherewithal write such a well-articulated complaint. Hopefully this will result in more training and understanding of CFP-related laws by the police department.

 

[Jeff Johnson]

David...

You might want to bring this to the attention of Clark Aposhian, who is not only a member of our forum here, but if I recall is also on the board of BCI. He might be able to help straighten this out from the BCI side.

It was wrong of this law enforcement officer to do this to you.

One other thing. Not only is open carry legal in Utah, but with your CFP it is perfectly legal to carry it fully loaded. Only without a CFP must a person carry it unloaded.

 

[iampacking]

David, if you are not careful, you are going to dispel the idea that those of us who carry are just a bunch of mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers. I concur with Udink, very well written.
Please keep us posted on the outcome. If what you were doing was violating the law, then there are a lot of us who must not understand the law.
Al

 

[Mr. Magnum]

Wow :shock:

Definitely keep us informed.