[Outsider]

Okay, I'm not quite sure where to post this now that we have both CC or OC (not complaining because I like the different forums) so I'll post here and the Posse can move it if needed.

So this morning I'm going to shoot my XD40 and my buddies S&W 9mm at the Orem Rec Center - Firearm Range and I found this on their website:

All firearms brought into the Fitness Center must be transported in gun cases!

Is that regulating firearms? Don't get me wrong this one I kinda agree with because of all the little kids running around it seems to violate U.C.A. 76-10-500.

 

[mcmeister]

I was there 2 weeks ago and carried concealed. Of course I was concealed, so nobody knew any better. I think what they don't want is someone slapping down a handgun on the counter to pay for entry with others around. Might cause a bit of panic. The guy that is always in the shooting room could probably answer that question rather quickly. I'm guessing the answer is just don't bring one out of it's "case" until you are in the shooting range. I'm interpreting a case to also mean my concealed holster on my person. Nice little range. Its close and it's cheap.

 

[Outsider]

I didn't ask, kinda forgot. But yeah, I liked it. There was someone next to me that just bought a Springfield XD-40SC and was shooting it for the first time. He gave me a target to use while my buddy went back out to the car to get the targets (forgot those somehow). We ended about the same time, putting about 200 rounds through my gun and I think only 100 through his. I gave him a UCC business card and told him about us. Hopefully he'll show up. I had out a UCC card a day it seems like.

 

[divegeek]

All firearms brought into the Fitness Center must be transported in gun cases!

Is that regulating firearms? Don't get me wrong this one I kinda agree with because of all the little kids running around it seems to violate U.C.A. 76-10-500.

Yes, I think it does violate pre-emption.

 

[mchlwise]

I look at that statement the same as I look at the Trolley Square "no firearms" sign - it's a question of enforcement.

Since it's a pseudo private facility, I would imagine it's within their rights to set whatever arbitrary rules they want, with the penalty being follow them or leave.

The thing is... it's not enforced. My wife and I have gone there at least 10 times in the last few months. Most of the time, the guns have just been in a bag, or otherwise concealed, and it hasn't been a problem. We've never carried them in an actual gun case.

On Friday, I was open carrying my Beretta 92. It's black, and was in a black holster on my right hip, and it's not a small gun. I was wearing jeans and a plaid shirt, so I doubt it blended in very well with what I was wearing. We went out to dinner, then to the rec center. I walked right up to the front desk past a few exercisers, to the girl at the desk who was chatting with her boyfriend. I paid for my wife and I, and we went in past numerous people (many of whom worked there) and made our way to the gun range. The range master noticed the gun, but didn't say anything on my way in or on my way out. When we were done, I again OCed right past the front desk and a bunch of people (including some employees), and nobody ever said a thing.

:dunno:

 

[divegeek]

Since it's a pseudo private facility

What is "pseudo private"? Is it or is it not a city facility?

 

[mchlwise]

Since it's a pseudo private facility

What is "pseudo private"? Is it or is it not a city facility?

"pseudo private" as in it's operated as if it's a private facility, although I believe it's technically owned by the city. :dunno:

You have to pay to get in , you can buy memberships, they can limit access or deny you entry, etc., etc.,... :raisedbrow: I wouldn't call that "public", though it may be owned by a public entity.

 

[Outsider]

Since it's a pseudo private facility

What is "pseudo private"? Is it or is it not a city facility?

"pseudo private" as in it's operated as if it's a private facility, although I believe it's technically owned by the city. :dunno:

You have to pay to get in , you can buy memberships, they can limit access or deny you entry, etc., etc.,... :raisedbrow: I wouldn't call that "public", though it may be owned by a public entity.

I just called down to Orem Fitness Center and confirmed that they are owned and operated by the City of Orem, so they are a city entity, using that term "you are a city entity" and they said "Yes, we are."

 

[divegeek]

Since it's a pseudo private facility

What is "pseudo private"? Is it or is it not a city facility?

"pseudo private" as in it's operated as if it's a private facility, although I believe it's technically owned by the city. :dunno:

You have to pay to get in , you can buy memberships, they can limit access or deny you entry, etc., etc.,... :raisedbrow: I wouldn't call that "public", though it may be owned by a public entity.

They're owned by the city, so they're a city facility and not allowed to make rules regarding firearms. Doesn't matter if they charge you to get in (which is the norm for most city-owned recreational facilities everywhere; I've never seen a city pool without an admission fee, for example).

Now, I'm not sure if it's worth raising a fuss, especially if they don't actually enforce their rules when people are open carrying responsibly, but I think it's pretty clear that the rule is illegal.

 

[Outsider]

I kinda agree with this one because of all the little kids running around but yeah, I'm not going to make a fuss about it personally. I'll just take in my range bag and case and have fun.

 

[mchlwise]

Now, I'm not sure if it's worth raising a fuss, especially if they don't actually enforce their rules when people are open carrying responsibly, but I think it's pretty clear that the rule is illegal.

I go back to what I first said about the rule being like the prohibition at Trolley Square (though I guess the Rec Center's city affiliation gives it less authority):

Neither one has any legal basis, neither one seems to have a whole lot of enforcement, and there's not much that can be done about either.

So basically, yeah... I agree. They legally probably shouldn't be setting the rules they are setting, but who is going to stop them?

 

[divegeek]

Neither one has any legal basis, neither one seems to have a whole lot of enforcement, and there's not much that can be done about either.

So basically, yeah... I agree. They legally probably shouldn't be setting the rules they are setting, but who is going to stop them?

Oh, we could stop them. I don't think there's any doubt about that. A phone call to the city attorney might do it. A letter from the Attorney General, threatening legal action against the city for violating state law, would certainly do it. There are various options in between.

This is different from Trolley Square, which is private property and not subject to 76-10-500 (2).

However, I agree that as long as they aren't actually hassling anyone about it, why bother?

 

[mchlwise]

Oh, we could stop them. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

It would be nice if a letter could do it, but I doubt that would be enough. I'm sure I could find an attorney who would happily draft something... billed at his normal hourly rate, of course. :ack:

Sure it could be done, but it could be costly, and as you said - why bother.

 

[Bflamante]

I love telling people "yeah, i go to the local city rec center for target practice." That would have been a nice additive to the LA Times article.

 

[mcmeister]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but there is really no battle to be had with Orem Rec Center. I'm afraid inciting one would only go about getting the range closed. They state that all guns must be transported in containers. This is for the average Joe who does not have a CCW and who just wants to brush up on his target practice or perhaps a scout troop that wants to work with the boys for a firearms merit badge. I have seen numerous people draw their ccw weapon from within their holster and fire at the range. In fact, I saw the range master do that a time or two. In my opinion, they are not trying to infringe on our gun rights, but as I stated earlier, only prevent some less educated person from coming in, throwing down a gun on the counter (next to the family of kids wanting to go swimming) and try to pay for entrance. This is more of a common sense statement and not a rights infringing plan. If that were the case, they'd just close the range and off to the desert for us Utah County folks.

 

[mchlwise]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but there is really no battle to be had with Orem Rec Center. I'm afraid inciting one would only go about getting the range closed. They state that all guns must be transported in containers. This is for the average Joe who does not have a CCW and who just wants to brush up on his target practice or perhaps a scout troop that wants to work with the boys for a firearms merit badge. I have seen numerous people draw their ccw weapon from within their holster and fire at the range. In fact, I saw the range master do that a time or two. In my opinion, they are not trying to infringe on our gun rights, but as I stated earlier, only prevent some less educated person from coming in, throwing down a gun on the counter (next to the family of kids wanting to go swimming) and try to pay for entrance. This is more of a common sense statement and not a rights infringing plan. If that were the case, they'd just close the range and off to the desert for us Utah County folks.

I agree there's no battle to be had with the Rec Center, and I have no problem with their "request" that people bring guns in cases. It is just common sense, and has been posted previously, it's probably to make sure no one chucks a loose gun on the counter while they're getting out their membership card or whatever.

As long as they don't make me take my gun out of my holster and put it in a case before they let me in, they'll keep getting my business.

Is the rule an infringement? If it's enforced maybe. :dunno: As it is, things are fine and I kinda like their little range. Might even go again tomorrow night.
:gun8:

 

[manithree]

Oh, we could stop them. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I took my BIL and two of his kids shooting there last night, and I don't know why I never thought of this before (or why nobody else mentioned it), but I'm guessing they're not making regulations but trying to inform shooters of existing ones. The fitness center has to be completely inside Mountain View High School's GFSZ. The buildings can't be more than 100 ft apart, and they share parking.

I don't know, but I would bet the fitness center was built before 1990. And I haven't read the entire GFSZ act, but I imagine a shooting range on a high school campus is technically going to violate it.

So, I say GO OREM! Keep operating a shooting range in a GFSZ! I'll continue to go, and I'm now even more convinced that challenging the unenforced rule could do way more harm than good (like getting the range shut down).

 

[Cabinetmaker]

So does this mean that the lifegaurd who told me I had to get out of the pool because I had my gun clipped to my swim trunks was in the wrong? So I really can get in the city pool while I OC. Which brings up another question, what will happen if I have to shoot someone when I am underwater. :nilly: I am still kinda new to this and haven't had the chance to test my gun underwater. I know that you will all rail on me for less than perfect training but those darn underwater rounds are so expensive. :lolbang: