Utah Guns Forum banner
1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
147 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this has come up ad-nauseum but once I get my CCW I'm legal to cary my Stiletto Switch-blade or an impact baton in the car, or a fixed blade boot knife over 3 inches in length?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
356 Posts
RobFindlay said:
I know this has come up ad-nauseum but once I get my CCW I'm legal to cary my Stiletto Switch-blade or an impact baton in the car, or a fixed blade boot knife over 3 inches in length?
Your permit is NOT "restricted" to Firearms ONLY eventhough the permit says Concealed Firearms Permit.

TJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
I've recently been further educated on this topic.

76-10-523(2) says "The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county."

Next, 76-10-504(1)(a) & (1)(b) says
"(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor."

76-10-504(1)(a) is concerning a concealed dangerous weapon which is not a firearm, while (b) is specific to a firearm. Only (b) exempts a person with a valid concealed firearm permit... (a) makes no such exemption. The two codes seem to be a bit at odds with each other (76-10-523(2) specifically references 76-10-504(1)(a)as being exempted by a CFP), so I've been somewhat confused.

Since I'd heard good arguments on both sides of the issue, I queried the state via the [email protected] e-mail address (I've found the folks at DPS to be pretty darn good at getting clear answers back in a timely manner... kudos to those folks!). I heard back that the statute states firearms and does not cover knives.

Other states do cover knives (I'm pretty sure Florida does, for example), but apparently Utah does not.

It would probably be good for the legislature to get involved and clear up the muddiness, one way or the other.

- Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
701 Posts
UtahCFP said:
I've recently been further educated on this topic.

76-10-523(2) says "The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county."

Next, 76-10-504(1)(a) & (1)(b) says
"(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor."

76-10-504(1)(a) is concerning a concealed dangerous weapon which is not a firearm, while (b) is specific to a firearm. Only (b) exempts a person with a valid concealed firearm permit... (a) makes no such exemption. The two codes seem to be a bit at odds with each other (76-10-523(2) specifically references 76-10-504(1)(a)as being exempted by a CFP), so I've been somewhat confused.

Since I'd heard good arguments on both sides of the issue, I queried the state via the [email protected] e-mail address (I've found the folks at DPS to be pretty darn good at getting clear answers back in a timely manner... kudos to those folks!). I heard back that the statute states firearms and does not cover knives.

Other states do cover knives (I'm pretty sure Florida does, for example), but apparently Utah does not.

It would probably be good for the legislature to get involved and clear up the muddiness, one way or the other.

- Dave
I fear that the good people at the DPS need to re read the laws. It specifically says that 76-10-504(1)(a) does not apply to those who hold a concealed firearm permit. Just because it specifically says in 76-10-504(1)(b) that we are exempt the other previous law says that we are exempt from dangerous weapons other than firearms. You can't read one specific law and say what utah law says. It is the entire code that explains the laws.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,616 Posts
UtahCFP said:
...Since I'd heard good arguments on both sides of the issue, I queried the state via the [email protected] e-mail address (I've found the folks at DPS to be pretty darn good at getting clear answers back in a timely manner... kudos to those folks!). I heard back that the statute states firearms and does not cover knives.

Other states do cover knives (I'm pretty sure Florida does, for example), but apparently Utah does not.

It would probably be good for the legislature to get involved and clear up the muddiness, one way or the other.

- Dave
Dave, can you quote, in this thread, the email reply that you received from DPS?
Did they, in their response, cite the state statutes?

You see, I can't accept your conclusion without better proof.

I tried to lay out, in as clear detail as possible, what statutes we are exempt from (with a CFP) in this thread. I'll try to point out the pertinent part here. One of the statutes that we are exempt from is U.C.A. 76-10-504(1)(a):
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor;...
The definition of concealed dangerous weapon in U.C.A. 76-10-501 is this:
(2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
Please explain to me how this can possibly not exempt us from carrying non-firearm dangerous weapons concealed.

My other question is, who from DPS responded to your query? Is that person an attorney knowledgeable in the state statutes that deal with dangerous weapons, or a staff member who knows no more than the average UCC member?

Even many attorneys do not know all the laws concerning weapons and self-defense. That's why, if I ever need to defend my self-defense actions in court, I will want to hire an attorney who specializes in self-defense law.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,616 Posts
Mazellan said:
I fear that the good people at the DPS need to re read the laws. It specifically says that 76-10-504(1)(a) does not apply to those who hold a concealed firearm permit. Just because it specifically says in 76-10-504(1)(b) that we are exempt the other previous law says that we are exempt from dangerous weapons other than firearms. You can't read one specific law and say what utah law says. It is the entire code that explains the laws.
I think that you're quite right. We are exempt from U.C.A. 76-10-504(1)(a) and U.C.A. 76-10-504(1)(b).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
542 Posts
So here is my question, my girlfriend is NOT 21 and does not carry a gun. I do insist that she carry mace or a stun gun at all times. what can she carry while under 21 with out breaking the law?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,757 Posts
scott.pete06 said:
So here is my question, my girlfriend is NOT 21 and does not carry a gun. I do insist that she carry mace or a stun gun at all times. what can she carry while under 21 with out breaking the law?
As I understand it, she can OC anything she can legally own, which includes a gun (as long as she's over 18). She can't conceal anything that is a "dangerous weapon", and by my reading of the legal definition of dangerous weapon the pepper spray or stun gun should be okay.

76-10-501 defines dangerous weapon:

(5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
(i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
(ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
(iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
(iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.
Another option, if she wants, is to get a concealed carry permit from Maine, which would allow her to carry pretty much whatever she likes. I believe that's a simple matter of getting a Utah training course and then sending some paperwork and money to Maine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
542 Posts
swillden said:
scott.pete06 said:
So here is my question, my girlfriend is NOT 21 and does not carry a gun. I do insist that she carry mace or a stun gun at all times. what can she carry while under 21 with out breaking the law?
As I understand it, she can OC anything she can legally own, which includes a gun (as long as she's over 18). She can't conceal anything that is a "dangerous weapon", and by my reading of the legal definition of dangerous weapon the pepper spray or stun gun should be okay.

76-10-501 defines dangerous weapon:

(5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
(i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
(ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
(iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
(iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.
Another option, if she wants, is to get a concealed carry permit from Maine, which would allow her to carry pretty much whatever she likes. I believe that's a simple matter of getting a Utah training course and then sending some paperwork and money to Maine.
not a bad Idea I'll lokk in to it..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,331 Posts
swillden said:
Another option, if she wants, is to get a concealed carry permit from Maine, which would allow her to carry pretty much whatever she likes. I believe that's a simple matter of getting a Utah training course and then sending some paperwork and money to Maine.
Just to clarify, if you are between 18 and 21 and get a Maine permit, Utah fully recognizes that permit? If so, can you take ANY Utah CFP class and then simply send your money and application to Maine to get the permit? Is there anything else required?

I ask because I have know of several college students that would like to carry concealed, but we figured they were unable until they are 21.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,757 Posts
apollosmith said:
swillden said:
Another option, if she wants, is to get a concealed carry permit from Maine, which would allow her to carry pretty much whatever she likes. I believe that's a simple matter of getting a Utah training course and then sending some paperwork and money to Maine.
Just to clarify, if you are between 18 and 21 and get a Maine permit, Utah fully recognizes that permit? If so, can you take ANY Utah CFP class and then simply send your money and application to Maine to get the permit? Is there anything else required?

I ask because I have know of several college students that would like to carry concealed, but we figured they were unable until they are 21.
Utah fully recognizes any permit, from any state or county in the US. Keep in mind that there's also that question about whether or not the Federal Gun Free Zone Act would consider a Maine permit valid in Utah. Only applies to K-12, though.

As for the requirements of a Maine permit... I'm going on vaguely-recalled second-hand information. The thing to do is to look up the requirements from Maine, and talk to one of the people who has done it. There are a couple over on OCDO.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,616 Posts
swillden said:
As I understand it, she can OC anything she can legally own, which includes a gun (as long as she's over 18). ...
Don't forget the Utah-unloaded requirement for open carrying without any permit. The gun must be unloaded by
Utah's definition:
U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
542 Posts
What is the utah law saying she can oc a handgun at 20? Or is it the absence of the law that makes it ok? :dunno:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,616 Posts
scott.pete06 said:
What is the utah law saying she can oc a handgun at 20? Or is it the absence of the law that makes it ok? :dunno:
It's the absence of any prohibition in the law that makes it legal.

Some people in this country have been conditioned to believe that we must be specifically permitted by law to do things, and that if the law does not explicitly permit a thing, then that thing must be illegal. This is a hideous idea that is the antithesis of freedom and liberty.

Laws are passed to prohibit things (and the more laws get passed, generally the less freedoms we have).

It is legal for young people, 18-20, to own handguns. They just can't buy them from an FFL.
It is legal for those young people to openly carry handguns, as long as they are Utah-unloaded (see above). When I say openly carry, I mean holstered, of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
Jeff Johnson said:
UtahCFP said:
...Since I'd heard good arguments on both sides of the issue, I queried the state via the [email protected] e-mail address (I've found the folks at DPS to be pretty darn good at getting clear answers back in a timely manner... kudos to those folks!). I heard back that the statute states firearms and does not cover knives.

Other states do cover knives (I'm pretty sure Florida does, for example), but apparently Utah does not.

It would probably be good for the legislature to get involved and clear up the muddiness, one way or the other.

- Dave
Dave, can you quote, in this thread, the email reply that you received from DPS?
Did they, in their response, cite the state statutes?

You see, I can't accept your conclusion without better proof.

I tried to lay out, in as clear detail as possible, what statutes we are exempt from (with a CFP) in this thread. I'll try to point out the pertinent part here. One of the statutes that we are exempt from is U.C.A. 76-10-504(1)(a):
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor;...
The definition of concealed dangerous weapon in U.C.A. 76-10-501 is this:
(2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
Please explain to me how this can possibly not exempt us from carrying non-firearm dangerous weapons concealed.

My other question is, who from DPS responded to your query? Is that person an attorney knowledgeable in the state statutes that deal with dangerous weapons, or a staff member who knows no more than the average UCC member?

Even many attorneys do not know all the laws concerning weapons and self-defense. That's why, if I ever need to defend my self-defense actions in court, I will want to hire an attorney who specializes in self-defense law.
The email I received is the following (with a few bits xxx'd out):

- - - - - - - -

David,

under the CCW statue it states firearms, so no it does not cover knives.

>>> "David xxxxx" <[email protected]> 8/21/2008 7:38 PM >>>
Hello,

I've heard both ways on this question, so I thought I'd ask y'all directly.

Does the Utah CFP allow a permit holder to carry a knife (not simply a
pocket knife) concealed?

Thanx,
David xxxxxxx

- - - - - - -

Since statutes seem to be at odds with each other, I could easily be convinced either way. I think the legislature should be taking the mud out of the water here. If you PM me, I'll send you the contact info for the person who responded to me (I'd rather not post e-mails in public forums with all the silly crawler bots out there).

- Dave
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,167 Posts
Dave, that person is a moron - or, giving them the benefit of the doubt, they are at least EXTREMELY ignorant of the laws and are in NO position to comment on your question. Jeff's citations above are accurate and have legal standing as opposed to the fact that the permit says "Firearms".... that's just asinine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
183 Posts
:flag: I LOVE AMERICA...and UTAH!! :patriot:

NOT Illinois...

:wherecfp:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,616 Posts
UtahCFP said:
David,

under the CCW statue it states firearms, so no it does not cover knives.
That sounds like the old (and invalid) argument:
"It's called a Concealed Firearm Permit, therefore it only allows concealed firearms."

This person did not provide any references to the statutes. I did.

If you felt inclined, you could email that person back, quoting my post, wherein I explained exactly what statutes we are exempt from with a CFP. It would be interesting to know what the response back would be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
701 Posts
Jeff Johnson said:
UtahCFP said:
David,

under the CCW statue it states firearms, so no it does not cover knives.
That sounds like the old (and invalid) argument:
"It's called a Concealed Firearm Permit, therefore it only allows concealed firearms."

This person did not provide any references to the statutes. I did.

If you felt inclined, you could email that person back, quoting my post, wherein I explained exactly what statutes we are exempt from with a CFP. It would be interesting to know what the response back would be.
:agree:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,400 Posts
When the legality of something is an issue, why would anyone ask the BCI? You already know they are going to give you the wrong answer. They even have the wrong answers posted on their website. When I have a question that is not covered in his book, I will e-mail Mitch Vilos, and he promptly replies.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top