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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was up in Bountiful for a week visiting my brother who is in town from Sweden and staying at my parents house. I had just got done playing around at the off road area at the B in my Jeep and was heading home past the temple when I saw a Bountiful 5.0 on a side street. I checked speed and and did the quick math that is required to figure just how slow I'm going with the 35" tires and different gears in the axles. Was somewhere around 32. I think.
Anyway he is turning left and I'm going to his right so he wont be following me so I'm not worried. As i pass I notice him watch me, then turn right and flip on his lights. I pull over, turn off the car and grab my wallet out of the cup holder and put my licenses on the dash and put my hands up on the roll bar handles. The top and doors are off see he can see everything in the jeep. He walks up and asks for license I give him license and CCW and tell him I'm a CCW permit holder and am carrying. He jumps back and puts a hand on his gun and tells me not to move or reach for anything and asks where the gun is and if it's loaded. I tell him on my right hip and yes it's loaded. He asked if there was one in the chamber and I tell him yes. He shakes his head and tells my to be real still and walks back to run my license and permit. He comes back and he then asks why I think he pulled me over. I asked him if there was anything I could help him with. He doesn't really like that answer and asks again. I ask again if there's anything I can help him with and if I'm being detained. He says he pulled me over for not having mud flaps and how I'd better tell all my friends that have jeeps that he's going to do the same to them since he's tired of getting his windshield broken by rocks thrown from all the ******* jeeps around. I told him I had just gotten done wheeling and had mud flaps and pointed to them in the back seat, but that the mounting bracket was full of mud and I had to go home and wash it out before I could remount them. He gave me a fix it ticket anyway. Since I already got a ticket I decided I'd give into my smart *** side so I asked him if they were baseball sized rocks that he was running into cause that's all that would get stuck in my tires. He tells me to drive safely home and fix my jeep and that if he see's me on the road again without the proper equipment he's going to impound my jeep.

And I can honestly say thats about on par for my police encounters with bountiful PD and my jeep. I do think my CCW though has helped a bit as after they run my recored and that permit they seem a little bit nicer. They just don't seem to like my Jeep up there.
 

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Sorry, sounds kind of like an ignorant jerk. I've had really good experiences with BPD - while they don't always seem to know the law, they have been very courteous in my hood, sorry to hear about the bad experience. :cry:
 

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Sounds like this officer is a bit prejudiced against jeeps and their owners? Seemed awfully jumpy but at least you didn't have to put up with the idiocy of having your weapon yanked out as has happened to some. The way he pulled you over and his comments were harassment. Not really very excusable. Hopefully all you have to do is show that there was no problem and you won't have to pay a fine for a "rule infraction." Another term for revenue maker for cities like Bountiful

Brings to mind the case of the ******* officer who used to cruise without his lights on out in Bountiful a few years back. Would come up on someone without lights, flash on lights and siren from right behind people and then ticket them for doing nothing. One lady got very even with him and he really heard it from his superiors when he did this to her and she slammed on her brakes. He bashed right into her and guess who's fault it was? Egomaniacs and ******** shouldn't be officers, they are too temperamental and don't really care too much who's toes they step on.

Glad it went easy on you for the most part, just sorry you had to put up with poor behavior and bad manners.
 

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I'm not at all saying he's right.
But I can see why he might be prejudiced against Jeeps being up in his neighborhood (probably "all the time") -- it's pretty likely that he sees a lot of problems from them. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to Jeep up there, per-se. Just that Jeeping is one of those things where not everyone is as courteous as they should be. Clearly you have flaps, but I'm sure there are enough who don't.

Again, I'm not saying he was right (and clearly much too jumpy regarding your CC status) -- I'm just saying when groups of people bring problems around, it ruins it for all of us. Your best bet if you want to keep Jeeping up there in peace might be to get involved with a local Jeep group and see what you guys can do to get in good with the BPD.
 

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bane said:
I'm not at all saying he's right.
Again, I'm not saying he was right (and clearly much too jumpy regarding your CC status) -- I'm just saying when groups of people bring problems around, it ruins it for all of us. Your best bet if you want to keep Jeeping up there in peace might be to get involved with a local Jeep group and see what you guys can do to get in good with the BPD.
I agree with Bane on this. This could be the best way to foster better relationships with the local pd and perhaps reduce incidents like yours. Someimes these things turn out pretty good for all sides.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
A few years ago I had a unmarked cop car swerve across 3 lanes of rush hour traffic to pull me over and tell me I needed fender flares and flaps. No ticket just wanted to let me know in a very harassing manner.

Yeah I'm a member of http://www.u4wda.com/ and a few other clubs, we don't have a lot of time to hang out with cops we are mostly doing trail cleanups and land improvements. I've gotten pretty discouraged at all the land closures in Utah lately. If you ever think fighting for the 2A is hard try fighting for public land use. The clubs just aren't big enough or rich enough to fight all the envirowackos, and celebrities who don't live in Utah but donate to groups like SUWA that works to close down Moab. They have multi-million dollar annual budgets.

Bountiful City has always had problems with people wheeling at the B since they illegally closed down the B a few years back. It got opened back up since its a designated trail, skyline drive and old ward canyon, but they didn't like having to do it. They claimed they closed the whole mountain to protect the water shed but there was only one trail that crossed the water and it was made by the city to get to some of their equipment on the stream. Since then cops have been roaming the area and checking ID's. I grew up in Bountiful and have always had a 4X4 and 4 wheelers and dirt bikes and played at the B and have had my ID checked numerous times while camping up there.

Also there is a state wide crack down on places that do Safety, I/M, because of fender flares, and mud flaps. 2 places I go to for mechanic work lost their licenses for not rejecting people for fender flares. I've got no problem abiding by the laws I bought the 400 buck fender flares and welded up some mud flaps so I'm legal. I've got no problem with being pulled over for missing the equipment as I was breaking the law. And I've since fixed the problem with some drain holes in the mounts so they shouldn't get as full of mud. But it was his attitude, and the way he reacted to my CCW that bothered me.

Yup I'm very glad he didn't disarm me.

edit: never said the cop was stupid or that I didn't do anything wrong. The cop however seems to be a jeep hating prick.
 

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Ty said:
Yeah I'm a member of http://www.u4wda.com/ and a few other clubs, we don't have a lot of time to hang out with cops we are mostly doing trail cleanups and land improvements.
I'm just saying, this approach isn't going to cut it. You will almost surely continue to have problems.
Trail cleanups are great -- but if those in charge of policing the community don't get good "vibes" about your group, you're going to get harrassed, that's just how it is. Take the OC community as an example... most carry respectfully and have few problems. But every now and then somebody messes up and everyone starts to get harassed for a little bit. No amount of park cleanup projects are going to change that.

Instead of focusing on trail cleanups, perhaps you should try and get into some official cleanup event with the local PD a few times a year. You guys host a BBQ and basically have it all set up the first few times and try to make buds out of them. Offer to take them out on a few rides with you. That will create a situation where you can both talk about the things that matter... they will see why you enjoy it, and they will have an opportunity to educate you about whatever issues they have with it.

You know what they say, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I get what you are saying but with the current state of public land use, getting in close with the cops is kinda like straighting the deck chairs on the titanic while its going down. It doesn't address the main problem we have. It's just another problem but it doesn't threaten our sport or hobby so it's not a priority. If there's no where to wheel then no use building a rig that could get harassed. We've already worked with law makers to fix and redefine the old lift and tire laws so they are easy to understand and there has been less abuse from the cops now that they can't make things up to hand out fix-it tickets. So it has gotten better than when I was a kid.

Now we are fighting to be able to re-open closed lands and to keep the forest service and other groups from closing the now open land down. Right now my group is in charge of the forest lake trail system in Spanish fork canyon. We've been building fences to cut off trails that aren't on the trail map, hauling trash off including whole cars that we're taken up there and shot to pieces, replanting and putting in erosion stopping mats and ground cover all while getting in close with the forest service guys who are the ones that have a say as to our use of the land. Litter, erosion, illegal trails, and broken down and shot fences can get trails closed. If we ever get to the point where we aren't playing catch up on fighting land closures, trying to educate people on proper land use and trail use, and getting people to stop littering all over the place then maybe we can put some money and time into other things.

Although as I think about it another ally for public land usage wouldn't hurt. I'll talk to some of the clubs and see what they think.
 

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I see your point -- it didn't convey in your earlier posts but it sounds like you are on the right path... MARCH ON!
 

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Don't know exactly what a "******* jeep" :huh: is, but a buddy of mine did mention that the gun rack mounted on the roll bars is a required piece of equipment. :lol2:

Though I can understand how the LEO feels about rocks and other stuff flying off of vehicles, the situation could have been handled a lot better. It's great that you weren't pulled from the vehicle and disarmed like others in the group. It seems as though the BPD are becoming more aware that normal citizens have the right to bear arms and are becoming a little more "gun friendly".

Off roading can be a lot of fun. I'd like to try it sometime. I'll be sure to have the proper equipment installed to avoid being pulled over. Thanks for the heads up.

gf
 

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Quote:edit: never said the cop was stupid or that I didn't do anything wrong. The cop however seems to be a jeep hating prick. Lrn2read.

A few years ago I had a unmarked cop car swerve across 3 lanes of rush hour traffic to pull me over and tell me I needed fender flares and flaps. No ticket just wanted to let me know in a very harassing manner. end quote

Yep, here we go again. If the cop had pulled you over every day for a week that is harassing. One time doesn't make for harassment!

There again your equipment was not up to par. It looks like you may need an attitude adjustment. Maybe you didn't say stupid cop, but it seems you imply that.

In this country the law rules. If we are to be successful, in keeping order, we must willingly respect and obey the law. There is no way this system of government can work otherwise. That includes using mud flaps where required. On what grounds you are excused?

Since I can't say QWITCHUR******* I'll just have to say: Stand up and take the consequences of your actions. The cop was just doing his job. If we were all to do as I said above, (we must willingly respect and obey the law) we wouldn't need cops.

Sorry, you don't get a by on this even if the moderator doesn't like me. :twisted:
 

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Ty said:
He says he pulled me over for not having mud flaps and how I'd better tell all my friends that have jeeps that he's going to do the same to them since he's tired of getting his windshield broken by rocks thrown from all the ******* jeeps around. I told him I had just gotten done wheeling and had mud flaps and pointed to them in the back seat, but that the mounting bracket was full of mud and I had to go home and wash it out before I could remount them. He gave me a fix it ticket anyway.
James said:
In this country the law rules. If we are to be successful, in keeping order, we must willingly respect and obey the law. There is no way this system of government can work otherwise. That includes using mud flaps where required. On what grounds you are excused?
So, Ty expressly states he had an equipment malfunction due to mud and brackets. This is understandable. To have removed them for a brief time is something I would consider okay as long as the problem was fixed in a timely manner, which it was. At this point the officer could easily have just given a warning which would be appropriate considering the explanation. Who here hasn't had an equipment malfunction while on the road before? I have. I have been ticketed and warned. And every time a ticket was issued, yes the officer could have given a warning but Chose to give a ticket. In these instances I, at least, noticed the arrogance of the officers who did so. Those who understand and are not arrogant will usually only give a warning. Things can and do happen. Are interior lights required? If they were working when you got in the vehicle and halfway to your destination or home they went out and there were no open auto stores to stop and replace the fuse, does that mean you really deserve a ticket because you traveled at the same rate of speed as the cars around you, but only you were pulled over, do you truly believe that you ought to be fined or ticketed for this? I doubt it. Would you be temporarily out of compliance, yes, but I am sure you would get to your destination and repair it first thing on the morrow. it really comes down to attitude and arrogance. Some officers could care less, then go and break some law as if there were no problem with it because they are "exempt." The way people are treated determines how they will treat or respect the officer. We aren't just sheeple, but intelligent thinking and reasoning human beings. Don't be pulling wool over our eyes and telling us you wouldn't give a break here and then expect to get special service if you break the same law.

James said:
A few years ago I had a unmarked cop car swerve across 3 lanes of rush hour traffic to pull me over and tell me I needed fender flares and flaps. No ticket just wanted to let me know in a very harassing manner. end quote

Yep, here we go again. If the cop had pulled you over every day for a week that is harassing. One time doesn't make for harassment!
Actually you are wrong James, persecution is listed by Websters as a form of harassment. In this instance the officer admitted he persecuted Jeep Drivers, this makes his behavior harassment. Normally to bother or pester in a constant manner would be considered to be harassment but when an individual deliberately persecutes another because of what they drive, what they do or what they wear then that fits the description. Had Ty not been driving a Jeep this officer would never have paid any attention to him. And his attitude needed adjusting, not Ty's.

Personally I feel Ty did an admirable job in how he handled this arrogant officer. His (the officers) behavior and demeanor showed his colors and things could easily gotten out of hand, especially with how nervous he was about legal weapons. Great job Ty! Glad you were able to reattach your offending flaps, sorry you had to put up with undeserved flap over this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Cinhil said:
Personally I feel Ty did an admirable job in how he handled this arrogant officer. His (the officers) behavior and demeanor showed his colors and things could easily gotten out of hand, especially with how nervous he was about legal weapons. Great job Ty! Glad you were able to reattach your offending flaps, sorry you had to put up with undeserved flap over this.
Thank you Cinhil. Said what I wanted to but with a cooler head. :thumbsup:

Oh and I am taking responsibility for my actions and accepting the consequences. Going up to Bountiful again to get the ticket taken care of. And like I said, I had fixed the problem.
 

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I told him I had just gotten done wheeling and had mud flaps and pointed to them in the back seat, but that the mounting bracket was full of mud and I had to go home and wash it out before I could remount them.
Here you are dripping with mud going up the road without mudflaps on. You wonder why he pulled you over? That is why and what you need mud flaps for. to keep the mud from flipping up and hitting other cars. You knew they were required on your Jeep, even had them in the back seat. So what, you think you can sneak home without them?

The fact that you produced a valid Utah carry permit tells the officer you are a good citizen whith no warrants etc. On the other to deliberately thumb your nose at the mud flap law sends mixed signals. We can't really pick and choose which laws we will obey.

Just put your mud flaps on and save yourself the hassle, even if you have to get muddy to do it. Nobody forced you to get the vehicle in that condition.

You gripe about the arrogance of the cops you encountered. I wonder how he would describe your attitude? We haven't heard the other side. Again I say, you were at fault! You could have avoided the confrontation by simply having proper equipment installed.

You cite two instances where you were pulled over for the same offense. That's twice you got caught. I have to wonder how many times you have went on the road without the proper equipment that you were not pulled over? Are you making a habit of it?

I don't care if the cop was ignorant, or arrogant, or the other things you called him, you are not excused for your own behavior. Good grief, just put your mud flaps on.
 

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OK James, I think it's time to take a break from this thread, we all know what you are saying (you've said it many times).

Yes, Ty was technically at fault (he's not really arguing that point, which you still are). Could he have put his flaps on after off-roading? No. The mounting area was too full of mud - so without cleaning it first (which he had no way to do), he couldn't reinstall the flaps. This means that while he technically is at fault, the LEO could have been more understanding and given him a warning.

As you read, Ty has since modified his Jeep so that he WILL be able to remount the flaps directly after off-roading, which was the right thing to do.

What Ty is trying to say is that the encounter was not positive. We all know Ty was at fault for the mud flaps, but the response of the LEO to his firearm was uncalled for and his berating and whining about the mud flaps was unprofessional - if someone is breaking the law, you cite them or arrest them, but as a professional, you shouldn't let emotions and personal opinion determine how you treat/talk to a civilian.
 

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Wow. Quite heated. While i agree with Ty about his predicament, I think i do side with James. The cop was a dink and definately had an attitude with the gun portion of the stop. However, just like carrying a gun, you need to be familiar with the laws when you choose to do activities. When making an off road jeep, or accessorizing a jeep for off road, make sure you know what the rules are to avoid such issues.

In a gun analogy I can't open carry a "utah loaded" gun without my permit and say, well, I was just leaving the range, i was going to unload it when I got home.

As a side note, I have had unfavorable responses from the BPD myself, so I don't really like taking their side on much of anything anyway.
 

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m&p40 said:
Wow. Quite heated. While i agree with Ty about his predicament, I think i do side with James. The cop was a dink and definately had an attitude with the gun portion of the stop. However, just like carrying a gun, you need to be familiar with the laws when you choose to do activities. When making an off road jeep, or accessorizing a jeep for off road, make sure you know what the rules are to avoid such issues.

In a gun analogy I can't open carry a "utah loaded" gun without my permit and say, well, I was just leaving the range, i was going to unload it when I got home.

As a side note, I have had unfavorable responses from the BPD myself, so I don't really like taking their side on much of anything anyway.
This is my view as well. I completely get Ty's point of view. And it would be nice if the Officer were more lenient given the situation.
But I have to wonder how many times he sees this sort of similar situation -- prompting him to get sick of what he perceives as mere refusal to comply.
Right or wrong, he was a jerk -- clearly not professional.
But right or wrong, I can see his perspective as well.

I understand Ty's argument that this wasn't a problem he could have foreseen. I'm not sure that's quite correct though -- I would think someone accustomed to Jeeping would have been able to foresee mud getting stuck in every nook and cranny. But that aside, I can't necessarily foresee that my firearm will fall out of my passive-retention holster either but if it does and lands on the ground at Walmart and heaven-forbit discharges... I'm still in for a heap of trouble -- whether I intended it or not.

Both have their point of view on this one -- it's really a lesson for us all though b/c the truth of the matter lies somewhere between the two positions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
m&p40 said:
Wow. Quite heated. While i agree with Ty about his predicament, I think i do side with James. The cop was a dink and definately had an attitude with the gun portion of the stop. However, just like carrying a gun, you need to be familiar with the laws when you choose to do activities. When making an off road jeep, or accessorizing a jeep for off road, make sure you know what the rules are to avoid such issues.

In a gun analogy I can't open carry a "utah loaded" gun without my permit and say, well, I was just leaving the range, i was going to unload it when I got home.

As a side note, I have had unfavorable responses from the BPD myself, so I don't really like taking their side on much of anything anyway.
Your analogy is off, it would be more like your gun locked up somehow while Utah loaded and there was nothing you could do about but take it home so you could get it into a vise or something and get it apart. You example is laziness by choice. I had no choice. None of the tools I had in my jeep at the time would fit into the mount to try and clean it out. And there was no other way I could mount my flaps.

Again, as I have stated earlier, I know the rules, the jeep club i belong to was the one that got the rules redefined so they aren't confusing and open to any interpretation the cop chooses like years ago. Also, If I hadn't I wouldn't have passed Safety this year and wouldn't have the sticker on my jeep. I had to buy some 400$ fender flares since they were the only ones big enough to cover the tires. I had to fab up my own mud flaps and mounting system since they don't come on the jeep even in stock form. It's a piece of square stock with a flange on the back welded to the frame. The flaps mount to an aluminum square bar and slide into the mount and a pin goes into if from the sides. I take them off when I wheel cause they get caught between rocks and the tire and break off.

I hate mud honestly and will avoid if I can, I hate having to clean it off my jeep and if I break and axle or drive shaft I get covered in the crap trying to do a trail repair. I prefer the rocks. But when I do have to go though the mud I go as slow as I can without getting stuck. The mounts are new I just made them this year. The jeep has been in a garage unregistered for the last 2 years, I haven't been able to work on it due to health issues. This was the first time I've been wheeling around deep mud and the tire flings it right up and into the empty mount. I'm not some irresponsible ******* I don't fling mud on the road, I clean out my tires in the dirt with some quick tire spins to fling the mud out of them. I've seen to many things get shut down from irresponsible wheelers. In fact when I was pulled over most of my jeep was pretty clean, like I said I don't like mud and I had the top and doors off. If I had gone muddin I would have been covered with mud. The bottom side was mud caked though, but it was dry and hard. I spent over 20$ at the self wash car wash place getting just the bottom clean.

And again I'm complaining about the attitude the cop had towards me not about the ticket. I broke a law that I knew. And I accept the consequences of my actions. I just don't think the cops actions are excusable to both me being armed or to my choice of vehicle or to how I choose to modify my vehicle everything else was within the law, I even fabbed up a front license plate mount that will work with my winch. I'm not saying I didn't deserve a ticket I did and I got one. Thats not the complaint, it's the way the officer treated me.
 

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I was up driving Skyline past the B about 6-7 years ago and a rock flipped up and broke my headlight.
Just for grins, I marked the spot it happened on my GPS.
Told the girlfriend (at the time) it was just in case I got pulled over on the way home. :lol2:

Driving back from the nights activities (around 2am) I was pulled over by one of Bountiful's finest.

Rolled down the window, turned off the truck, got my wallet out, put both hands on the steering wheel.
Officer came up and asked if I knew why I was pulled over, I said probably because of the broken headlight.
I then told him I had a CCW permit, and the gun was in my map pocket, the headlight was just broken within the last hour and I had the spot where I broke the headlight marked on my GPS on the dash.
He told me to keep my hands on the wheel while he went back to the car and ran my drivers licence.

Came back and was very nice, told me to get the headlight fixed, and we both went on our merry ways.
Fixed the headlight the next morning.

I've only been pulled over 2 or 3 times since I got my CCW, and it's never been an issue.
Midvale police, Bountiful police, Highway Patrol, all pretty good experiences.
Guess I've been lucky.

phox
 
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