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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Deseret News has an article on the front page this morning (http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695239282,00.html) about an irrate customer shooting a security guard at Sapp Bros. Apparently this nut-job got mad because the line wasn't moving fast enough and he needed his pack of gum. A security guard asked him to leave and the BG pulled a gun and shot him. The paper reported 2 things I thought were strange.

1) A witness said that the security guards are never armed. I wonder if he had an open carry gun on his side if things would have been different. Just speculation. Sapp Bros. policy was to call the police if needed. I guess the police didn't get there in time.

2) A quote from the article says: "Police were unsure Wednesday whether the handgun was registered." Now I didn't know that handguns are registered so either the police or the news reporter in ignorant to Utah laws. Why would he say that?

My heart goes out to the family and friends of the Security Guard Verne Walter Jenkins. I hope Sapp Bros. reviews their policy and DEMANDS that security guards carry guns. They should be open carried as a deterrent.
 

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Yes this is truly tragic, my condolences go out to the family.
Hopefully the family knows that they have the right to sue the company their
family member worked for (Sapp Brothers) as it was their policy not to have, or allow guns at the facility, therefore adding complicity to the actions that took this poor security guards life. (IMHO, IANAL)
Hopefully policy changes and Sapp Brothers allows carry in the future. It is the only reasonable response to the outrage this criminal perpetrated.
 

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Years ago, I rked security for a company that had the contract for Sapp Bros. I was there a few months ago getting gas and saw their in house security.... They WERE NOT Armed.... I couldn't believe it. I was there with mine under my shirt but I was jus so surprised that they were not armed. With all the traffic that comes through there and your not sure what their (Peoples) past is.... I was just surprised.

Bless the S.O. and their family.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Years ago, I rked security for a company that had the contract for Sapp Bros. I was there a few months ago getting gas and saw their in house security.... They WERE NOT Armed.... I couldn't believe it. I was there with mine under my shirt but I was jus so surprised that they were not armed. With all the traffic that comes through there and your not sure what their (Peoples) past is.... I was just surprised.
I do not want to sound cold and heartless because I'm not. It must be devastating to loose a family member, husband, dad, or friend in a senseless violent act.

I have to wonder what the difference is between an unarmed security guard and a receptionist. Both can see there is trouble, ask someone to leave, and call the cops. Neither can defuse a situation with a deadly weapon unless the unarmed guard is a martial arts expert and isn't facing a gun from beyond his reach.
 

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knayrb said:
Years ago, I rked security for a company that had the contract for Sapp Bros. I was there a few months ago getting gas and saw their in house security.... They WERE NOT Armed.... I couldn't believe it. I was there with mine under my shirt but I was jus so surprised that they were not armed. With all the traffic that comes through there and your not sure what their (Peoples) past is.... I was just surprised.
I do not want to sound cold and heartless because I'm not. It must be devastating to loose a family member, husband, dad, or friend in a senseless violent act.

I have to wonder what the difference is between an unarmed security guard and a receptionist. Both can see there is trouble, ask someone to leave, and call the cops. Neither can defuse a situation with a deadly weapon unless the unarmed guard is a martial arts expert and isn't facing a gun from beyond his reach.
Having worked in the security field as both a guard and a supervisor I can tell you that unarmed security is nothing more than a customer service rep. and is nothing more than a deterrent for crime. I have even seen unarmed guards working at banks, and refilling ATM’s.
 

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xmirage2kx said:
knayrb said:
Years ago, I rked security for a company that had the contract for Sapp Bros. I was there a few months ago getting gas and saw their in house security.... They WERE NOT Armed.... I couldn't believe it. I was there with mine under my shirt but I was jus so surprised that they were not armed. With all the traffic that comes through there and your not sure what their (Peoples) past is.... I was just surprised.
I do not want to sound cold and heartless because I'm not. It must be devastating to loose a family member, husband, dad, or friend in a senseless violent act.

I have to wonder what the difference is between an unarmed security guard and a receptionist. Both can see there is trouble, ask someone to leave, and call the cops. Neither can defuse a situation with a deadly weapon unless the unarmed guard is a martial arts expert and isn't facing a gun from beyond his reach.
Having worked in the security field as both a guard and a supervisor I can tell you that unarmed security is nothing more than a customer service rep. and is nothing more than a deterrent for crime. I have even seen unarmed guards working at banks, and refilling ATM’s.
An Un-Armed guard was seen at the Layton Hills Mall on Sat. shoveling snow. I believe the on who saw her.

Tarzan
 

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I heart also goes out to this man's family. This is tragic.

For a company to have a policy that prohibits self-defense even by their security guards, who have to deal with questionable characters every day, is unconscionable.

I don't know if it would have made a difference in this case, but the point stands.
 

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Jeff said;

For a company to have a policy that prohibits self-defense even by their security guards, who have to deal with questionable characters every day, is unconscionable.

I agree whole heartedly! I know many of the security personnel from the U of U and every one of them is extremely frustrated by this insane intolerableness which the U of U incorporates. They are lucky if they can carry a can of mace. :oops: :evil:
 

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xmirage2kx said:
knayrb said:
I have to wonder what the difference is between an unarmed security guard and a receptionist. Both can see there is trouble, ask someone to leave, and call the cops. Neither can defuse a situation with a deadly weapon unless the unarmed guard is a martial arts expert and isn't facing a gun from beyond his reach.
Having worked in the security field as both a guard and a supervisor I can tell you that unarmed security is nothing more than a customer service rep. and is nothing more than a deterrent for crime. I have even seen unarmed guards working at banks, and refilling ATM’s.
For a little over five years, my son worked as a security guard handling lots of money in and out of ATM's (he's a Federal Security Officer now). We would see him probably every week, and he'd often have a new story or two about how someone would be getting too close and he'd politely ask them to move back, and they'd JUST KEEP A-COMIN'!

He's told me (he didn't tell my wife as much as he told me-not to worry her) about having to put his hand on his sidearm a LOT of times, some weeks it might be daily. And he's a people person, really not a confrontational guy!

At least once he had to draw on someone. He called 911 and the police arrested the person. His experiences have been a real eye-opener for me, and have helped me to stay in yellow more than I otherwise might.

It's hard for me to see how a security guard can possibly do the job without being armed.
 

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UtahRSO said:
His experiences have been a real eye-opener for me, and have helped me to stay in yellow more than I otherwise might.
Since I got my CFP over 2 years ago, I find myself in condition 'yellow' quite a bit more. Having the pressure of that firearm on my hip has truly opened my eyes to situations where I need to be more careful. I'm constantly aware of the people that are around me and their position to my strong side. I even find myself guarding that strong side by pressing my forearm against my holster. I suppose I do it for retention purposes, but it's almost a subconscious maneuver on my part.
 

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In the Navy we routinely visited a few countries that absolutely would not allow us to carry firearms out onto the pier while standing security watches (Panama was one we visited a lot who had this law). In those countries we were only allowed to use firearms from the ship and security on the pier had to go out with nothing more than a walkie-talkie, OC, and an asp... in Panama we weren't even allowed to have OC or an asp, however. It was ridiculous and a little unnerving, to say the least... but it wasn't USN policy, it was always the policy of the host country and there was nothing we could do about it.
 

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Strategic Tactical said:
I have never really figured out why companies decide to go with UN-armed guards.
Simple:
The Billing rate for UN-armed guards: $19-$36 (per hour)
The Billing rate for Armed guards: $32-$75 (per hour)

I am not even going to start on the insurance rates of armed vs un-armed.

One more good reason (this is radio communication at a site I worked for):
Control Room (CR) Guard 1 (G1)
CR: will you respond to an employee termination at location ____
G1: Sorry CR, can't do it right now
CR: Why not?
G1: I have been handcuffed to a filing cabinet by a hostile employee
CR: what is your location, we are sending every free guard to assist you
G1: I am at ______________, but it's ok because I have a backup key

We come to find out he was sleeping and while asleep a janitor took his handcuff and locked him to the cabinet
 

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The insurance is held with the contract company though. I have a friend who owns one of the local companies in the area. I'm just frusterated with people putting security behind a desk to answer phones.... I hope the family sues Sapp Bros because the guard couldn't protect himself
 

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Cinhil said:
Jeff said;

For a company to have a policy that prohibits self-defense even by their security guards, who have to deal with questionable characters every day, is unconscionable.

I agree whole heartedly! I know many of the security personnel from the U of U and every one of them is extremely frustrated by this insane intolerableness which the U of U incorporates. They are lucky if they can carry a can of mace. :oops: :evil:
The U of U has no right to deny any of its employees from carrying a gun (if they have a CWP). So why the frustration? Just carry concealed.
 

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Hamm,

In response to your question about security personnel at the U I have been told by them, that though it is perfectly legal to do so, if they value their job they cannot carry. If the U security personnel are found to be carrying they will be fired.
They do not like this, but if they want to keep their work they must comply. The guard in my building is happy to know there are several of us who do lawfully carry, but that still leaves him as the first person targeted when a criminal enters the building, and mace doesn't help against a threat.
But I fully understand your concern. If the security personnel I know do carry, they do so concealed and with great care so they will not jepordize
their job any more than possible.
It is truly a detestable situation and I feel for these poor men & women who are left with little beyond brains and some close quarters training should they truly have to defend themselves or others at the U when/if a madman charges in to do mayhem. Ooops---already happened, one dead prison guard at the Ortopaedic Center & a woman almost kidnapped with the intent of murder by another criminal--both within a couple weeks of each other--on campus! :oops:
I Too wonder when the insanity will stop and security personnel will be allowed to use proper measures at the U to take care of situations when/if they occur. It is truly shameful!
 

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My heart goes out to the security guards family. Vern was a family man and a soon to be father.

The bad part was Vern had regular interaction with the man who shot him.
he harrased this man on a regular basis.

When asked by the security officer the suspect left the store slowly. Vern decided to go hands on with this man. Thats when it happened the suspect had enough of being bullied by this Security officer he snapped.

Vern paid the ultimate price his life. This could of been avoided if Vern used people skills and did not use his postion to harrass others. Vern decision to become a security officer was questioned by all.

Customers report being harrased by this Officer

The company is at fault for not providing any training

A firearm in this incident would have made matters worse his personality was that of a poor mindset for security it would have gotten someone Killed.
 

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tapehoser said:
How do you know all of that?
I would like to know the same thing. Do you have anything to back this up? Is this from personal knowledge, e.g. did you personally know and interact with Vern?

If it's just hearsay, then passing it along without proof is not a great idea.
 
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