Shooting Guns Banned in Utah County Due to Fire Hazards

That's interesting considering Utah has preemption:

"In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and all its political sudivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

"Use of firearms" would include discharging. I certainly understand Utah County officials want to prevent fires but this is not the way to do it. So if you are in an unincorporated part of the county and have to discharge your firearm in self-defense, you are guilty? Of what? I'd like to know where the county sheriff and the fire marshall are getting the authority to ban discharge of firearms since only the state legislature can give them that authority.

Udink,

Thanks for the citation. However, I believe it is out of date. It appears that part of the code was last amended in 1981. (I'm going off of the this website: http://le.utah.gov/~code/code.htm )

Title 10 applies to the Utah Municipal Code. Utah County is not a city. In any case, the Utah Legislature passed UT CODE 63-98-102 in 2004. UT CODE 63-98-102(1) states the legislature's intent to "provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state." If each city were able to enact their own gun laws, it could vary from city to city. What could be legal in one city could be illegal in another. That is why there needs to be uniformity and that is why the law needed to be changed.

So, I would still like to know where the Utah County sheriff and fire marshal think they are getting their authority to regulate firearms when the legislature has not authorized them to do so.

Does anyone have an experience with enforcement of this "ban" by the sheriff, fire marshal or Bureau of Land Management?

Ok. I have a few more details now. The Utah County commissioners declared a state of emergency due to the fire conditions. As part of that, on July 10 they declared a ban on the discharge of firearms in unincorporated parts of Utah County. The ban is supposed to be for only 30 days but, according to Commissioner Larry Ellertson, the ban could continue throughout the summer. Folks, this is a back door attempt to shutdown shooting activities in Utah County. The majority of fires start from things other than sparks from gun shots. Matches should be banned before firearm discharges since they cause more fires. They want to ban any activity that could start a fire. Lots of activities can cause fires. In that case, camping should be banned because starting a campfire may cause a fire. See how ridiculous this is getting already?

http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/cqcgi_pl ... T_MAIN=YES

Document no. 9 of 14
[Go To Best Hit]
Wednesday, July 11, 2007
Deseret News
[Edit Document]

Edition: UtahValley
Page: B01

Fire risk prompts gun ban

County restricts use of firearms for 30 days
By Amy Choate-Nielsen
Deseret Morning News
PROVO â€" For everyone who thinks shooting dirt clods and metal signs in Utah County this summer will be fun, think again.
Utah County commissioners declared a state of emergency in the county on Tuesday and placed a temporary ban on the use of all firearms in unincorporated territory because of an increased fire risk. For 30 days from Tuesday, the only shooting going on in Utah County should be in a firing range, said Utah County Sheriff James Tracy.
"This is not an anti-gun effort in any way," Tracy said. "I'm an NRA member. I shoot and I recreate with firearms myself, but we're asking the public to help mitigate an issue that has already caused millions of dollars of damage to the county."
The ban, which does not apply to any federal lands, such as National Forest Service territory, also includes fireworks and open fires.
Several recent costly and dangerous fires in Utah County â€" including the recently contained Mercer fire near Lake Mountain â€" were ignited with gunshots.
However, county officials didn't consider declaring a fire emergency until two weeks ago, when a faulty lawnmower started a fire in the foothills above Provo.
The fire burned so quickly that planes were called into dump fire retardant on the flames â€" at a cost of $3,000-$8,000 per load. Since the fire was on county land, a majority of the bill will come back to the county government, which is expected, but there's only so many fires the county can pay for.
"We had a wet spring that allowed those cheat grasses to grow to a significant size, but we didn't have a lot of snow in the winter to back up the moisture, and we haven't had any rain," Tracy said. "Everything's dried out, and it's just, you look at (the grass) sideways and it wants to catch on fire. ... Our emphasis is to limit the exposure to the types of activities that could start another fire."
Tracy says the sheriff's firing range in Thistle will be opened to the public for free to offer an alternative to shooting in a potentially hazardous area.
Starting Saturday, the range will be open on Saturdays from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.
After July 20, the range will also be open on Fridays from 5-9 p.m. The range is at 12814 S. Highway 89 in Spanish Fork Canyon, near the old Thistle town site and near the confluence of Thistle Creek and Soldier Creek.
Those found shooting outside of a range in the county will first be warned, then cited with a misdemeanor, Tracy says.
Tracy and other Utah County officials say they don't remember a time when the county has issued such a ban.
"We don't take this lightly," said Utah County Commissioner Gary Anderson. "There are those of us who love to shoot our guns, but I think the state of the fire condition in this state and this county calls for drastic measures. We don't take it lightly, and we are serious. We're already beyond our limits (in fighting fires) and we need to do something."
The restriction will be in effect for 30 days, at which point the County Commission will consider lifting or extending the ban. If conditions significantly improve before the 30 days expire, the commission may consider lifting the ban sooner, but Commissioner Larry Ellertson said he doesn't think such a swift change is likely.
"(It's possible) we're not going to lift this for the rest of the summer, because even rain won't make what's out there go away," Ellertson said.
Norman Van Wagenen, owner of Van Wagenen Finance â€" an Orem store that sells guns â€" says he doesn't think the ban will have much of an impact on recreational shooting.
"It really isn't a big deal because most of the residents go farther out to shoot anyway," Van Wagenen said. "I don't see (the restrictions) as a big problem for me, selling guns and ammunition. We know why (the ban was approved), there's a risk of fires. I understand and believe they should (pass a restriction). They should have done it sooner, but luckily we haven't had a really bad situation in Utah County yet."

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I say we get vocal. I'm mad, mad, mad mad about this. If I didn't read this thread, I'd be out shooting. I know people are supposed to be let off the first time with a warning, but a lot of innocent people might find themselves on the wrong side of the law if this doesn't get out more. And people who don't know the state law will really think the Utah County commissioners can ban things like firearms discharge on a whim. I don't have the actual ordinance in front of me but I'd be interested to see the fine print.

Ok. I have the actual ordinance in front of me. I will try and get it in PDF as soon as I can. I had to contact the commissioners' office, who then referred me to the county attorney's office, who made me make a GAMMA request (it's similar to a FOIA request for the feds) and finally got a copy of the ordinance. The ban began on July 10 and lasts for 30 days, unless the county commissioners renew it. The ban prohibits discharge of firearms in unincorporated parts of Utah County, on state land in Utah County and on federal land in Utah County. Listen up--there is more. It also bans discharge of tracer ammunition. The ordinance bans other things, namely making fires (except under certain conditions) and smoking (except under certain conditions). The ban does NOT provide exceptions for self-defense. So if Big Bad Joe comes to your house, threatens to kill you, and you shoot him in self-defense, and you are in one of the new prohibited areas, you broke the law. If you live in the boonies in the county (i.e. unincorporated area) and want to shoot on your property, you are breaking the law. This ban is arbitrary and will not stop fires from happening in the county. Like I said, I'll post the actual text for you (probably on Sunday).

NRA's 007, I've been trying to figure out how shooting regular ammo would start a fire. Lead against rock? Copper jacket against rock? I don't see how. BUT I do believe that it happens.

Not too many weeks ago, there was a fire started here in SLC at the Lee Kay Shooting Range. Somehow, a fire was started on the 100 yd berm, and no one seems to know just how it started... except that it did! It's a mystery. The manager out there (a VERY pro-gun person) was cautioning people to make sure their shots were going into the bare-of-vegetation area of the berm behind the targets.

I have relatives in Saratoga Springs and Eagle Mountain who enjoy shooting in the mountains to the west and north of their places. Yes, they would like to do some shooting. But they'd rather NOT shoot for awhile than take a chance of having their homes burn down.

Surely you don't think the Utah County government is banning shooting just to be mean, do you? It's the fire officials, knowledgeable people who sincerely believe shooting out there might start a fire, who recommended the ban to the county government.

Now about tracer ammo... Shooting tracer ammo into dry brush most assuredly will start a fire. Surely you're not railing against the ban of tracer ammo, are you?

Mjolnir,

Thanks for joining the conversation. I know we are experiencing a very bad fire season. I understand that. I also understand the county officials are trying to prevent fires but this ordinance is a bit far-reaching. I will get the ordinance on the board shortly. This ban prevents anyone who lives outside of the incorporated parts of the county from discharging their firearms, even on their own property, even in self-defense. If the state and county will not out and out ban fireworks, which are more likely to cause fires than discharging fireworks, then things are not THAT bad. What I have a problem with is 3 people quietly making criminals out of law-abiding citizens overnight by passing this ordinance without public input. After all, shouldn't the 40,000 + residents of the county have a say in the matter? I had to pull teeth to get a copy of this ordinance. They should have it posted on their website, in it's complete entirety. They normally would have charged me a fee to get a copy of the ordinance, but I convinced them this benefits the public more than me. What if I did not hear about the ban by reading this forum? I would be breaking the law. It isn't right to pass such a restrictive ban and not properly inform the public. People who live in unincorporated Utah County just got their 2nd Amendment rights flushed down the toilet with a 3 person vote. How is that for civil rights (i.e. the right to life, protection of life, etc.)? Don't be surprised if criminals take advantage of this discharge ban.

I think you will agree with me that more fires have been started from matches than from ricochets. Why not ban matches first?

The county commissioners are already flirting with the idea of extending the ban beyond 30 days. Who is to say they will not make the ban permanent?

As you can see, this ban involves more than shooting sports.