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Thanks for the PDF.

Help me out here... I still don't see where they even have the authority to do this. Isn't this ban against the state constitution? Is there some hidden state gun law that allows county government to enact gun bans?

I'm getting real sick of sub-state governmental bodies passing gun laws. They're illegal laws.
 

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Blackpuma,

I talked to my friends at the NRA. Apparently, they can impose the ban. Yes, Utah does have a constitutional provision for bearing arms. Unfortunately, though, this is about discharging firearms, not bearing them. Utah does have preemption. The Utah Legislature has reserved to itself the right to regulate firearms. However, the Utah Legislature has allowed certain authorities to regulate firearms. I think everyone will be interested in this Attorney General Opinion:

http://www.attygen.state.ut.us/Opinions ... p01002.htm

There may also be case law which comes into play. Unfortunately, I have not done any case law research.

The ban will expire soon. The game plan, as I see it, is to see if we can prevent the ban from being renewed.

Does anyone know when fire season is supposed to officially end?

My fear is the county will do this every year from now on because a fire may happen.
 

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NRA's 007 said:
My fear is the county will do this every year from now on because a fire may happen.
That's my fear too. The past couple of years we have had a few fires caused by idiots shooting in the dry grass & it pi%&*s me off to no end because that's just the justification they've been looking for.

It just takes the same common sense (seems to be pretty uncommon these days) as having a camp fire. ONLY IN A CLEAR AREA :roll: .
I only set-up & shoot in a spot clear of dry vegetation & put targets in a clear area also. As long as those two areas are clear there's not much to worry about.
 

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Anyone know if this is getting renewed on the 10th?

Now correct me if I am wrong, but Lead and copper cannot cause a spark no matter what they hit. This means that the only fire danger at all would be from casings. I know I have been hit with many hot casings and never even been blistered, I couldn’t imagine one starting a fire. I think this ban is just a step for the antis as almost no danger exists, and much less danger than from cigarettes.
 

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No, I do not know if it is going to be renewed. However, we need to get vocal about this.

I would be curious to see if the commissioners end the ban on their own. It sounds like they are basing their decision, in part, on what the county fire marshal and county sheriff say. Utah County Sheriff James Tracy says he is a NRA member but wants to mitigate "an issue that has already caused millions of dollars of damage to the county" (quoting the July 11 Deseret News article on page 1 of this forum topic). Just like the commissioners, he is thinking of what may cause a fire. Lots of things may cause a fire.

The same news article quoted Commissioner Ellertson as saying, "(It's possible) we are not going to lift this for the rest of the summer, because even rain won't make what's out there go away."

Commissioner Ellertson was already flirting with the idea of extending the ban the day after it was issued.

Does anyone know when they are up for re-election? I think they need to know there are people out there, who are unhappy they changed the law overnight, without public input, and are flirting with the idea of extending the ban until the danger is over. Yeah, well, a fire may happen during anytime of the year.
 

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xmirage2kx said:
Now correct me if I am wrong, but Lead and copper cannot cause a spark no matter what they hit. This means that the only fire danger at all would be from casings.
A lot of surplus ammo has either a steel core or a steel jacket.
 

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NRA's 007 said:
... says he is a NRA member but ...
When somebody says "I'm ____ but..." know that they're just filling you full of B.S. But means "erase everything heretofore said from your memory."

Even some of the worst anti-gun knuckleheads are NRA members. Its gives them license to use this piece of crap phrase to manipulate us. Others are just "fair weather" gun supporters. It looks good at election time, but is otherwise a nuisance.

My wife's deceased grandmother was from the deep south and said, "Now I ain't prejudice but..." and proceed to say her racist sayings.

Like it excuses anything.
 

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NRA's 007 said:
I talked to my friends at the NRA. Apparently, they can impose the ban.
Based on what? How about somebody that actually knows, instead of flinging around opinion?

(Sorry, I don't hold the NRA in very high regard anyhow.)

... this is about discharging firearms, not bearing them.
"Bearing" guns implies being able to use them. They're not fashion accessories. They have a specific intended use.

Sounds the like next great anti-gun effort. "You can have them. You can load them. You can't discharge them."

... However, the Utah Legislature has allowed certain authorities to regulate firearms.
*sarcasm* Is this "bearing" or "discharging"? *sarcasm*

Seriously, though, I don't see anything in the A.G.'s opinion that supports Utah county having authority to ban the discharge of firearms.

For example it says:
Consequently, the rule is not only unenforceable, it is also null and void because it has been promulgated in direct contravention of a statutory provision forbidding such a rule.
My fear is the county will do this every year from now on because a fire may happen.
If they're allowed to do this unchallenged, bet on it. Expanding the scope of its power is a basic tenant of government. If they get away with it once, they'll do it again. If they get away with it twice, they consider it their God-given right and privilege.

To quote what I said earlier:

blackpuma said:
I still don't see where they even have the authority to do this. Isn't this ban against the state constitution? Is there some hidden state gun law that allows county government to enact gun bans?

I'm getting real sick of sub-state governmental bodies passing gun laws. They're illegal laws.
Is there or is there not a statute that grants the county authority to do this in the first place?
 

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Last Friday, someone I know who works for the Division of Wildlife Resources told me that there are five (5) counties closed to the discharge of firearms now: Salt Lake (which has been pretty much closed for quite a while), Utah, Davis, Tooele, and I think the other one he mentioned was Juab County. He said it was because of the extreme fire danger.

I said, "Tooele!!?? I've shot a lot out there."

"Yes," he said, "it's closed now."

Has anyone else heard about these other closures?
 

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I spoke with Tooele county Friday and they said they didn’t have the ban Utah county had... I will try to find out and get it in writing and post it here when I do.

Utah County can enforce the ban on discharging firearms because they declared a state of emergency. They can only do this for 30 days at a time without higher approval (not sure what higher approval would be) however they can reinstate it every 30 day if needed, so it could go on for as long as the fire marshal says fire danger is high. I am just worried that this will be a regular thing from now on.
 

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Mjolnir, thanks for the update. I had not heard about the other counties doing that, but I cannot say I am not completely surprised.

My friends at the NRA tell me counties can regulate the discharge of firearms. You can still possess firearms just not discharge them. It isn't clear to me if the counties are getting their authority by virtue of UT CODE 10-8-47, which Udink did previously cite, http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE10/htm/10_07048.htm

or if it comes from emergency powers.

Blackpuma, the Legislature has given counties the authority to regulate firearms in county airports. See Utah Code 76-10-529(3). Although that particular section does not address discharge, it proves that the state from time to time delegates authority to regulate firearms to other political entities. You have to read between the lines. No one has looked at case law yet. Oh, by the way, I trust my friends at the NRA because I spoke with one of their attorneys and I used to work for them. I hold the NRA in high regard and so should you. Did USSC or other Utah gun groups support Parker all the way up to the SCOTUS? You may not like everything they do but without them, this country would be a lot worse off. Trust me, I used to talk to people crying on the phone all day long who unknowingly got screwed by anti-gun laws in unfriendly states such as New York and California. You'd be surprised what the NRA has done for you in Utah.
 

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NRA's 007 said:
... I hold the NRA in high regard and so should you. ...
I'm not saying that they're evil or otherwise don't do good things. I used be a member. I just never know when they're going to support us or stab us in the back.

Really, I don't want to be bashing the NRA. What I expect isn't in alignment with their goals. They generally do a lot of good.
 

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Anybody else see the report that the Utah County commissioners re-upped the ban, and admitted that they had NO HARD EVIDENCE that shooting has caused even one fire.

They simply had "linked" one with the other. No hard evidence, just vague connections that guns cause fires.

Politicians like to appear that they're "doing something." Banning shooting is easy and doesn't ruffle enough feathers to make them think twice at election time.

We're just their whipping boys.

To quote from dictionary.com:
"Gun owners are the new ******* . . . of society" (John Aquilino).
Sorry if anybody finds that offensive, but it seems to have some truth to it.
 

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Blackpuma:

I like your posts. I did not want to imply that you thought the NRA was evil. I appreciate your thoughts on this forum.

No, I did not hear they re-upped the ban. Do you have a link or something for the rest of us to look at? Do you know if all 3 of them voted for it?

There are a couple of ways we can fix this. The commissioners need to hear from us. Who all on this site lives in Utah County? It adds a little extra weight when it's constituents that are complaining. We can call them, e-mail them and go to their little meeting and tell them this is unacceptable. We need to get all our friends together, anyone who owns or likes guns, friends of those who like guns, people who are concerned about 3 people making honest people criminals overnight by quietly passing a ban without public input--and no hard evidence that bullet ricochets cause fires. I'm sure the commissioners do not like controversy and certainly do not want to draw any undue, unfavorable attention to themselves. That is why we need to pack their meeting, get real loud about this, and call them on their claim that they support gun rights. I would love to see the Deseret Morning News or another media outlet cover a commissioner meeting that we will pack and let them explain to us why discharging fireams causes enough fires to impose a ban.

Does anyone know if the "fire danger" is over? If so, what is their next excuse going to be?

If we do not get anywhere with the commissioners, we can always go over their heads. We should start talking to our state legislators. The Legislature reserves to itself the right to regulate firearms and I think they might find it interesting to know that 3 little dictators are trying to impose their will on others, because they do not trust their constituents to responsibly use firearms in unincorporated areas of Utah County.

It's time to get vocal. Who is with me?
 

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I called Utah county sheriffs department and they stated that the firearms discharge ban was still being enforced. I asked if the ban had been renewed and they informed me that it didn’t need to be renewed and was in force until otherwise stated.

From my research into the law they could only ban the discharge due to a state of emergency being declared, and that had to be renewed every 30 days.

So is the person I spoke with misinformed (wouldn’t be the first time), or do I have an incorrect understanding of how this law works (also wouldn’t be the first time)
 

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NRA's 007 said:
Blackpuma, the Legislature has given counties the authority to regulate firearms in county airports. See Utah Code 76-10-529(3). Although that particular section does not address discharge, it proves that the state from time to time delegates authority to regulate firearms to other political entities.
76-10-529 only applies to secure areas of an airport. This does not prove delegation in any aspect besides how far back from the gates they can make the secure area. It actually proves you can carry your firearms into an airport anywhere besides the “secure area”

76-10-529. Possession of dangerous weapons, firearms, or explosives in airport secure areas prohibited -- Penalty.
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Airport authority" has the same meaning as defined in Section 72-10-102.
(b) "Dangerous weapon" is the same as defined in Section 76-10-501.
(c) "Explosive" is the same as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" in Section 76-10-306.
(d) "Firearm" is the same as defined in Section 76-10-501.
(2) (a) Within a secure area of an airport established pursuant to this section, a person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, is guilty of:
(i) a class A misdemeanor if the person knowingly or intentionally possesses any dangerous weapon or firearm;
(ii) an infraction if the person recklessly or with criminal negligence possesses any dangerous weapon or firearm; or
(iii) a violation of Section 76-10-306 if the person transports, possesses, distributes, or sells any explosive, chemical, or incendiary device.
(b) Subsection (2)(a) does not apply to:
(i) persons exempted under Section 76-10-523; and
(ii) members of the state or federal military forces while engaged in the performance of their official duties.
(3) An airport authority, county, or municipality regulating the airport may:
(a) establish any secure area located beyond the main area where the public generally buys tickets, checks and retrieves luggage;
and
(b) use reasonable means, including mechanical, electronic, x-ray, or any other device, to detect dangerous weapons, firearms, or explosives concealed in baggage or upon the person of any individual attempting to enter the secure area.
(4) At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted.
(5) Upon the discovery of any dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive, the airport authority, county, or municipality, the employees, or other personnel administering the secure area may:
(a) require the individual to deliver the item to the air freight office or airline ticket counter;
(b) require the individual to exit the secure area; or
(c) obtain possession or retain custody of the item until it is transferred to law enforcement officers.
[/quote]
 

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NRA's 007 said:
No, I did not hear they re-upped the ban. Do you have a link or something for the rest of us to look at? Do you know if all 3 of them voted for it?
I only read this on the front page of the Provo paper in a convenience store at the mouth of Provo Canyon. It was a Wednesday (last Wed?) since I was riding my bike up Provo Canyon. I picked up the paper and read the rest of the article.

It didn't state how the individual commissioners voted. The way I read it implied it was unanimous, but that's only reading between the lines.

It just burned me that they had no proof but were going to continue the (AFAIK) illegal ban.

... That is why we need to pack their meeting, get real loud about this, ...
Good points.

... We should start talking to our state legislators ...
IMHO this is also a good idea. Even if the legislature were to grant the commission said powers, I'd be happier (in a philosophical way) if only because the law was being followed.
 

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(sorry I’m a little behind on the subject. I haven’t checked the forms for a wile) I live in Utah County.....and my best friend's dad is one of the county commissioners. When my friend gets back form out of town I will see if I can go talk to his dad and see what I can find out about the subject.
 
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