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While it's sad to see situations like this develop... the up-side is that every time this happens, the case for gun-control is weakened.
 

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Yes, I realize that gun-control advocates will argue this way. But I think the general public is smart enough that incidents like this will sway them towards our line of thinking.
 

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Oh no, I'm not referring to the short-run of things... of course the public will here nothing but anti-gun rhetoric from this one single incident. I'm referring to bigger-picture, longer-range battle over concepts. The more the gun-control advocates use individual cases like this to further their cause, the more legislation is likely to be passed, which in turn will most likely lead to more incidents of this nature... eventually people WILL wake up and the whole fallacy will come crashing down. In the mean-time, gun friendly states such as UT will be showing statistics that will only help to reinforce our position.
 

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Hunter: Thank You for the post... sad and a bit depressing, but very informative. I feel really bad for those LE that I was able to picture while reading that.

Regarding the degradation of our nation's morality: it is my opinion that the problem is so deep and pervasive the hope of restoring it is small and the road is extremely long. At the root, I believe, of the problem is not the assault on the family (that assault is merely one of the victims) but the assault on the mind. That assault has been going on for many decades. You can't destroy the concepts of morality, family, freedom, and responsibility until you've destroyed a person's ability to think logically and rationally. An attack on those aspects is an attack on one's mind.

But you can't fix the national mind overnight. It took decades to get us to this point and it will take AT LEAST AS LONG to recover. Both the Religious Right and the Liberal Left want immediate results that they can demonstrate by each next election. But immediate results won't suffice. Most here realize the Liberal Left is only making the problem worse. Many may not realize that the Religious Right is also adding to the problem (I hope I don't offend anyone by that statement) -- the Religious Right's causes are NOT going to get us anywhere but a further division in our nation and a further degrading of our collective mind.

So... how do we "fix" it??? The same exact way it has been broken in the first place: a slow, patient, ideological war. A war of ideas. And if you don't view it as a war, you will lose. But don't expect to see the victory, we will all most likely not live long enough to see that day. But fight we must. We must choose to live noble lives -- which means: not merely obeying the law but choosing careers which advance society not merely drain it, choosing hobbies which better ourselves and those around us not merely help us pass the time, choosing to read things which better our world not merely keep us entertained, etc. And we must choose to help our developing young ones to live even better than we -- which means: TEACH THEM TO THINK, TEACH THEM PHILOSOPHY AND REASON. If you are religious, by all means teach them that... but don't just teach them to trust in what others tell them... teach them to analyze and think about what people, even people they respect, tell them. TEACH THE KIDS TO THINK AND SHOW THEM, BY EXAMPLE, WHAT A NOBLE PERSON LOOKS LIKE... that is how our system has been broken and it is how we will win it back.

Just my $0.02
 

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69RR: Actually, Utah Law is pretty clear on CCW. You have a permit, you can LEGALLY carry anywhere you want (with the few exceptions in law such as mental institutions, courts, federal places, churches, and homes).

If a Utah business posts a "no Guns" sign and you CC anyways you are not breaking ANY law. You are breaking their POLICY. Now, however, if you are "made" while there and they ask you to leave and you refuse, they can and most likely will make a case for TRESPASS (which is not a weapons violation so your permit MIGHT not be revoked). However, in response to their trespass case, you also could make a pretty strong case of a violation of your civil Rights.

As you said, it would end up costing money... most likely a bunch. But that's ONLY if you are "made", asked to leave, and refuse. And up until such point you are NOT committing a crime. So, another TS occurs and you shoot the guy with your CC permit??? You haven't broken any laws, no reason you would get into any legal trouble.
 
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