Shooting @ Northern Illinois Univ

3347 Views 18 Replies 12 Participants Last post by Jeff Johnson, Feb 20, 2008

NotSoSimple

Discussion Starter · Feb 15, 2008

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567/

6 Deceased, ~15 wounded. Incredible...Cant believe it.

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

Car Knocker

· #2 · Feb 15, 2008

Yes indeed, it is a terrible thing. But I'm not quite sure why you find it "incredible" and "can't believe it". As long as government officially condones these kinds of things by disarming potential victims, they are going to continue to happen.

Contrast this incident at Northern Illinois University to what happened 3 weeks ago at the Makor Heim Yeshiva High School in Israel:

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in Gush Etzion seminary high school
By Israel Insider staff January 25, 2008

In Gush Etzion, southeast of Jerusalem, two Palestinian gunmen wearing IDF uniforms burst into the Makor Haim yeshiva high school. Wielding guns and knives, they lightly injured two Israeli counselors before being shot dead.

The terrorists infiltrated Makor Haim, a kibbutz, sneaking into the main building of its high school seminary, run by world-renowned Talmudist, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz. The terrorists entered a library room where seven of the boarding school's counselors were meeting. Dressed as security guards, and armed with a knife and what appeared to be a gun -- it later turned out to be a toy -- ordered the seven to line up on one side of the room. A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. Another grabbed the fake gun from the other terrorist, wrestled him to the floor, while the first counselor shot him. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.

At the same time, the Beit Medrash (study hall) -- adjacent to the library -- was packed with students taking part in the weekly Thursday night "mishmar" all-night Torah study session, Israel National News reported.

An army official praised the quick response of the students and their counselors. "This could have ended much worse," a source in the Central Command said.

Â© 2001-2004 Koret Communications Ltd. All rights reserved.

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in Gush Etzion seminary high school
[Edited to short the link to prevent excessive horizontal scrolling, and to put quoted article in quote block -- Jeff]

In my opinion, a government that refuses to allow people to defend themselves is just as guilty as the person(s) pulling the trigger, or detonating the bomb, etc.

GeneticsDave

· #3 · Feb 15, 2008

+1 CarKnocker

Here's a link to the story with a photo (not the print version):

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/S ... /12596.htm

Jeff Johnson

· #4 · Feb 15, 2008

It is indeed a tragedy. My heart goes out to the victims and the families of the victims. I agree with Car Knocker. While it's a tragedy, it is not so incredible or unbelievable. This is yet another example of how well a so-called "Gun Free School Zone" works.

The incidence of multiple-victim shootings is far higher in those places where self-defense has been made illegal (as in all of Illinois) or prohibited by policy (as at Virginia Tech).

The contrast between this Illinois case and the school in Israel is striking.

xmirage2kx

· #5 · Feb 15, 2008

So sad

Strategic Tactical

· #6 · Feb 15, 2008

I LOVE THE ISRALIES.....they know how to have "GUN CONTROL" Lots of range time and Lots of good citiznes with guns.

I feel for the families in Illinois. My prayers are with them.

Hunter

· #7 · Feb 16, 2008

I hope administrators are noting that the high school age kids of few years ago are now in college. They are carrying over with them the same "get even" or "I'll show you attitude" as they had a few years ago. It was these same type of thinking, among other things, that brought on the school shootings a few years ago. I hope campuses are being better prepared for it.

I used to work for a University Police Dept. and one of the reasons I left there was the lack of willingness to see, or admit, that prepartion for such a problem is needed.

Jeff Johnson

· #8 · Feb 16, 2008

I found an article in which it states that the killer had an Illinois FOID card (Firearm Owner ID) and bought the guns legally.

Gunman Stayed at Hotel Before Rampage
By ASHLEY M. HEHER and CARYN ROUSSEAU
Saturday, February 16, 2008
...
On Feb. 9, Kazmierczak walked into a Champaign gun store and picked up two guns _ a Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun. He bought the two other handguns at the same shop _ a Hi-Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6.

All four guns were bought legally from a federally licensed firearms dealer, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. At least one criminal background check was performed _ Kazmierczak had no criminal record.

Kazmierczak had a State Police-issued FOID, or firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems.
...

Shaolin

· #9 · Feb 17, 2008

Jeff Johnson said:
I found an article in which it states that the killer had an Illinois FOID card (Firearm Owner ID) and bought the guns legally.

Gunman Stayed at Hotel Before Rampage
By ASHLEY M. HEHER and CARYN ROUSSEAU
Saturday, February 16, 2008
...
On Feb. 9, Kazmierczak walked into a Champaign gun store and picked up two guns _ a Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun. He bought the two other handguns at the same shop _ a Hi-Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6.

All four guns were bought legally from a federally licensed firearms dealer, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. At least one criminal background check was performed _ Kazmierczak had no criminal record.

Kazmierczak had a State Police-issued FOID, or firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems.
...

Click to expand...

This was a sad situation, and now hearing he had a FOID card, which might be like a CFP here in UT, is not looking good for us good guys, in a very small way.

Car Knocker

· #10 · Feb 17, 2008

As I recall, an FOID (Firearm Owner IDentification) is needed to merely possess a firearm and, I think, to purchase ammunition in Illinois. There is no CCW in Illinois for the peasants.

Ruger Collector

· #11 · Feb 17, 2008

I stumbled onto an interesting website today, which makes me wonder if his treatment wasn't more dangerous than the depression.

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

UtahRSO

· #12 · Feb 18, 2008

Ruger Collector said:
I stumbled onto an interesting website today, which makes me wonder if his treatment wasn't more dangerous than the depression.

I had a good friend, a great guy, wonderful wife and family, faithful religious man. But he was becoming frustrated because he was developing some strange health problems that sapped his strength, and the doctor couldn't find the reason. The doctor put him on Prozac to help with the depressed feelings he had.

He called the police one day and told them there was a dead body on his front lawn. There wasn't when he called, but by the time they arrived, there was one... his. He shot himself.

I think it was his wife who told us she thought it was the Prozac.

Cinhil

· #13 · Feb 18, 2008

Thanks you so much Ruger Collector!

I had heard many stories about these connections, and I believed they were true because these drugs are not natural cures, but derivatives of very deadly drugs.

It is amazing how many instances are listed here. If this isn't a wake up call to people it certainly ought to be. If you know anyone on anything like these the time to get them off of them is yesterday. Just remember that immediate withdrawal can create huge problems. The unfortunate thing is they must be weaned from these deadly drugs a little at a time until they are no longer dependent upon them.

And people wonder why I look at the advertisements on TV and complain about the desire of these companies to dope up society--at our own cost too! It is huge business! Reading Books like Prozac Nation and Natural Cures can be very mind opening concerning the extent of these drugs and there evil as they are perpetrated upon society more & more.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a very important issue and more people need to be alerted as to what these things are doing to society and how they influence everyone.

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divegeek

· #14 · Feb 18, 2008

Cinhil said:
If you know anyone on anything like these the time to get them off of them is yesterday.

I have to disagree. I know several people who have benefited tremendously from these drugs, including a couple whose lives were almost certainly saved by anti-depressants. The drugs are perhaps prescribed a little too freely, but clinical depression is a real medical problem with a genetic basis, and I firmly believe that anti-depressants save a hundred lives for every sad story like this. The difference is that the sad stories get more press and more attention -- much like firearm self-defense stories.

Similarly, drugs like Ritalin and Concerta are life-changers for some. We tried almost everything with my oldest son -- I spent most of a school year working on my laptop in the back of his classroom. A mild dose of Concerta didn't fix everything, but it enables him to focus on his schoolwork and allows him to think about his actions before -- or at least while -- acting.

In his case, I think another solution would be to take him out of the public school system. That would be my preferred solution but he really doesn't want to be homeschooled, and the fantastic little private school we found (where he attended four years) was forced out of business by government regulation.

Regardless of the schooling environment, though, the drugs make it easier for him to learn. We don't let him take the medication on weekends or when school's out and he practically begs for it when he has homework to do on those days. (Unlike anti-depressants, it's okay to jump on and off ADHD meds). A tiny bit of that is caused by the meds themselves; we notice that the math and reading we make him do during the summer gets a little easier for him after he's been off the drug for a couple of weeks, but even then his ability to focus is markedly less than when he's on the medication.

I used to be a big opponent of these medications until I saw how dramatically they improved the lives of people close to me. In the case of my son, it's the difference between him getting an education and not. In the case of some other relatives, it's quite literally prevented suicide.

One note about Prozac and all other serotonin enhancers: They do cause a marked *increase* in depression for the first few days. If you know someone who is going on such a drug, keep a very close eye on them for the first week. The prescribing doctor will point this out as well, but people often ignore the warning, and many of the "Prozac suicides" are exactly this effect. Likewise, when someone goes off of anti-depressants those around them should keep a close eye on them for a week or two.

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Ruger Collector

· #15 · Feb 18, 2008

swillden said:
I have to disagree. I know several people who have benefited tremendously from these drugs, including a couple whose lives were almost certainly saved by anti-depressants.

It's a game of Russian Roulette. I have a family member who is bi-polar, some medications help her immensely, others have been pumped out of her in the ER. The shrinks and therapists have tried just about everything on her and various combinations of drugs, it took over 10 years for them to stumble onto an effective combination.

We have to monitor what she takes closely. Even a minor dosage variation can have a devastating impact on her behavior.

I have seen first hand the effects of almost every psycho-therapy drug, and sincerely believe that 93% of people would be better off without them. The over prescribing of them is a serious and deadly problem that isnâ€™t adequately addressed today.

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divegeek

· #16 · Feb 18, 2008

Ruger Collector said:
It's a game of Russian Roulette.

It sounds like our experiences are very different. My only other comment is that the clinical statistics support my position.

GeneticsDave

· #17 · Feb 19, 2008

For all of you who watch Glenn Beck, I saw this and thought of you.

Glenn Beck on the NIU Tragedy.

Hunter

· #18 · Feb 20, 2008

GeneticsDave said:
For all of you who watch Glenn Beck, I saw this and thought of you.

Glenn Beck on the NIU Tragedy.

I liked his take on it. Although it was full of too much common sense for the anti's to understand it.

Jeff Johnson

· #19 · Feb 20, 2008

I like Glenn Beck. He makes a lot of sense. Yes ... even common sense.
You're so right, it will sail right over the heads of the gun-grabbers.

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