[bob67]

1.) After reading countless posts and looking at the BCI's and talking to my CCW instructor I am a bit confused. While carrying in a vehicle, can my firearm be loaded or does it have to be unloaded? The reason I ask, I intend to carry loaded at all times but if I can't carry while in a vehicle...this makes it difficult and somewhat inconvenient to have to unload while entering a vehicle. (By vehicle, I mean a car, truck, or such. NOT a bus or public transportation)

2.) Am I REQUIRED to identify myself as a concealed permit carrier if approached by a LEO (assuming I'm carrying) in any situation (vehicle, street, etc)?

I apologize for probably asking questions that have already been asked but I keep reading contradicting things and I want to get these things straight.

 

[GeneticsDave]

Bob, perhaps I can offer a little in the way of explanation (according to what I know).

1. You can carry in a vehicle fully loaded (round in chamber) with a concealed carry permit. If you do not have a permit, the firearm must be unloaded, not readily accessible (trunk or locked case), and must be stored separate from the ammunition - in a separate bag/container. This second point is a point of debate; however, most of what I have heard does not allow a non-permit carrying citizen to carry a firearm in their vehicle with a full mag and an empty chamber. One other thing; you are allowed to carry on public transport such as UTA or Trax.

2. You are not required to identify yourself as a CFP holder to LEOs. In a traffic stop, I would recommend that you do as they are going to run your plates and get your information anyways - it would be wise not to give them any reason to be suspicious. On the street, it is a different story. If they stop you, I don't see any reason to inform them. If they are going to arrest you, I would declare yourself before they find the gun patting you down - once again, we don't want to make a LEO that may already be nervous any more jumpy.

Feel free to ask as many questions as you like, that's what we are here for. I am sure that someone else will likely correct me on something stated above, but what I have said is correct to the best of my knowledge.

Cheers!

 

[GeneticsDave]

I wanted to clarify my statement under answer number 2.

You ARE required to inform the LEO if you fall into BOTH of the following state coded sections:

1. A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions. (Code section 77-7-15)

AND

2. When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession. (R722-300-12. Requirement to Notify Peace Officer When Stopped.)

So, if you are just talking with a LEO or he asks you what you are doing you should ask him if he has reasonable suspicion to believe that you are breaking the law. If he says "yes", you should ask him what his suspicion is based upon. If it is legitimate, despite your innocence, I would then inform the LEO that I am not intending to break any laws and am legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon and that I do have the weapon on my person at this time.

Heaven forbid you ever get into a situation like this, but you have no responsibility to go around declaring yourself all the time - only if you look like you're a bad guy :twisted:

 

[GeneticsDave]

This 'Substitute Bill' may negate what BCI says on their webpage (could be outdated) and what I have been told and reinterated in my previous post on this thread. It's a little difficult to determine exactly what they are saying IS and ISN'T ok here. Perhaps someone else could clarify.

 

[Hunter]

I wanted to clarify my statement under answer number 2.

You ARE required to inform the LEO if you fall into BOTH of the following state coded sections:

1. A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions. (Code section 77-7-15)

AND

2. When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession. (R722-300-12. Requirement to Notify Peace Officer When Stopped.)

So, if you are just talking with a LEO or he asks you what you are doing you should ask him if he has reasonable suspicion to believe that you are breaking the law. If he says "yes", you should ask him what his suspicion is based upon. If it is legitimate, despite your innocence, I would then inform the LEO that I am not intending to break any laws and am legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon and that I do have the weapon on my person at this time.

Heaven forbid you ever get into a situation like this, but you have no responsibility to go around declaring yourself all the time - only if you look like you're a bad guy :twisted:

Below is right off the BCI Webpage with the address at the bottom.

If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer I have a gun in my possession?

Absolutely! The requirement to identify yourself to a police officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun is covered in Public Safety Rule R724-4-13.

If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer must assume you are carrying the gun illegally and will take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is better to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFPFAQ/FAQLE.html

 

[bob67]

Doh!

I feel stupid for not reading the BCI's FAQ's more carefully.

Thank you both VERY much, you guys have settled my fears, and thanks for being patient with a newbie in training.

This is an awesome forum!

 

[GeneticsDave]

Below is right off the BCI Webpage with the address at the bottom.

If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer I have a gun in my possession?

Absolutely! The requirement to identify yourself to a police officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun is covered in Public Safety Rule R724-4-13.

If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer must assume you are carrying the gun illegally and will take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is better to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFPFAQ/FAQLE.html

If you read R724-4-13, you will see that it is the SAME as the code R722-300-12 which I cited in my previous post. The "Absolutely! ..." blah blah blah, is someone's interpretation of the laws in the code R724-4, not the ACTUAL law. I don't like to nitpick, but I feel I must when we start taking opinion as law - so please tell me if any of my 'opinions' are wrong.

The "sees a gun on your person" negates the whole 'concealed' portion of what we are talking about. If you open carry, you must identify yourself if questioned. If the officer "finds a gun on your person" he is in violation of the law unless he has reasonable suspicion, which, if explained, requires you to identify yourself.

As far as I understand, after reading R724-4, the obligation to identify yourself only applies if the LEO suspects you, with reasonable cause, of being in violation of the law - this also pertains to traffic stops, as they must have a reason to pull you over (speeding, traffic violation, etc).

I do agree that being compliant and courteous is the way to go, and I am definitely going to identify myself if the LEO has a reasonable cause to question me. But I am definitely not going to go around tell LEOs that I am carrying. If they don't ask with reasonable cause, I don't tell, and the law doesn't require me to.

 

[Hunter]

Below is right off the BCI Webpage with the address at the bottom.

If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer I have a gun in my possession?

Absolutely! The requirement to identify yourself to a police officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun is covered in Public Safety Rule R724-4-13.

If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer must assume you are carrying the gun illegally and will take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is better to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFPFAQ/FAQLE.html

Hunter, if you actually read R724-4-13, you would have seen that it is the SAME as the code R722-300-12 which I cited in my previous post. The "Absolutely! ..." blah blah blah, is someone's interpretation of the laws in the code R724-4, not the ACTUAL law. I don't like to nitpick, but I feel I must when we start taking opinion as law - so please tell me if any of my 'opinions' are wrong.

The "sees a gun on your person" negates the whole 'concealed' portion of what we are talking about. If you open carry, you must identify yourself if questioned. If the officer "finds a gun on your person" he is in violation of the law unless he has reasonable suspicion, which, if explained, requires you to identify yourself.

As far as I understand, after reading R724-4, the obligation to identify yourself only applies if the LEO suspects you, with reasonable cause, of being in violation of the law - this also pertains to traffic stops, as they must have a reason to pull you over (speeding, traffic violation, etc).

I do agree that being compliant and courteous is the way to go, and I am definitely going to identify myself if the LEO has a reasonable cause to question me. But I am definitely not going to go around tell LEOs that I am carrying. If they don't ask with reasonable cause, I don't tell, and the law doesn't require me to.

GeneticsDave,
The intent of my post was to do nothing more than to answer the Bob67's question. It was not meant to contradict anything that was all ready posted. It was meant to reinforce what was already said with an easy point of reference. If you have a problem with what is on the BCI webpage, then take it up with them.

One thing you may want to remember is your CCW status is on your Utah Drivers License Information when it is checked on the computer by a LEO. This can not only be checked if there is "reasonable cause" to question you because of some type of law violation that you may be a part of, but also for situations where an Officer believes you could be a potential witness to a crime, for example. The Officer can ask for your information to check who you are because it is a part of a Police Investigation that is being conducted into a criminal act.

Again, what I have posted on this subject is meant to contradict what has all ready been posted. It merely added what I did in an effort to offer up points of clarification on the subject, and nothing more. Anyone can take what I have posted however they wish.

No worries about knit picking, I'm used to it after all I am married. :wink:

 

[GeneticsDave]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, I went back and edited my post because it sounded rude when I reread it - it wasn't directed at you personally.

I do have a few problems with the BCI website, I really wish they would cite references more when they say things and then also link to the reference so we can read it in legal terms, not just the webmaster's "interpretation," which I believe the 'Absolutely!' to be. It would also be nice if they placed a "Information current as of" statement on their pages - who knows when the BCI site was last updated...

I understand that my information may be accessed without reasonable cause, i.e. LEOs randomly checking plates on busy on-ramps for outstanding violations. But the law states that I don't have to identify myself as a CFP holder unless there is reasonable suspicion that I am breaking the law. My CFP status is not relevant if I am a witness to a crime, only if I am suspected of a crime.

From what I can gather, Hunter, you are a LEO - or in the field - so I appreciate your input and background. Please let me know if I am mistaken, as I am just a citizen without much legal background.

 

[Hunter]

No worries, no offense taken. Yes I am a LEO. My point about your CCW status being on your Utah DL Information was meant to offer up some food for thought. Even though you may not be a suspect, or part of a criminal act, the Officer will more than likely check your informaiton if he is dealing with you for other reasons.

Declaring to the LEO that you have a CCW Permit and the fact that you are carrying, isn't necessarily a bad thing under certain situtations, whether you are oblilgated to do so or not. I am NOT saying that everyone should state they are carrying to all LEO's all the time, just when obligated to do so, or when it seems appropriate. This will be more of a case by case situation, and also by applying good common sense.

HAPPY CARRYING!

 

[GeneticsDave]

I couldn't agree with you more. :wink:

 

[apollosmith]

To clarify and/or reiterate a few things:

You only need to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are one, have a loaded and concealed weapon in your possession, and are stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion. All three must apply. So, if the officer thinks you've done something wrong, you should inform. Don't go blurting off to every police officer you pass on the street that you're packing. Knowing some officers, they'll probably find something to write you up for. :lol:

Many people have recommended informing the officer that you are a CFP holder even if you are not carrying. When the officer runs your license, he'll see you are a CFP holder and will probably wonder where your gun is. It's likely best to diffuse this situation, though there's no legal requirement to do so if you're not carrying.

The only definition I've seen in law regarding weapons in vehicles for non-CFP holders is that they be:
1. unloaded (defined in law as 2 actions to go bang), and
2. either clearly visible and/or not readily accessible. This means a trunk, gun rack, or closed (NOT necessarily locked) case, but NOT in a glove box or console.

If anybody can provide details on the "separate from ammunition" thing or anything in addition to these requirements, I'd love to see it.

Another question: I know that non-CFP holders cannot use the glove box or console to store any firearm, but is it illegal for a CFP holder to keep a loaded weapon in a glove box or console? I've found nothing in the law that prohibits this.

 

[apollosmith]

Oh, and the 'Substitute Bill' noted above (2006 - S.B. 24) died before receiving a final vote. Nothing in there is in law and it can effectively be ignored.

 

[UTOC-45-44]

No worries, no offense taken. Yes I am a LEO. My point about your CCW status being on your Utah DL Information was meant to offer up some food for thought. Even though you may not be a suspect, or part of a criminal act, the Officer will more than likely check your informaiton if he is dealing with you for other reasons.

Declaring to the LEO that you have a CCW Permit and the fact that you are carrying, isn't necessarily a bad thing under certain situtations, whether you are oblilgated to do so or not. I am NOT saying that everyone should state they are carrying to all LEO's all the time, just when obligated to do so, or when it seems appropriate. This will be more of a case by case situation, and also by applying good common sense.

HAPPY CARRYING!

We are by to give if driving, Drivers license + CHP to the officer and state if we are or are not carrying at the time of the encounter.

Leaving now and won't be able to get the Code that states this But I know this for certain.

 

[mqeqeshe]

Regarding firearms in a vehicle, they may be stored in plain sight and legally unloaded (no need to completely unload). If the firearm is concealed in some way, it must be "not readily accessible for immediate use", and also legally unloaded. The law about storing ammo separate from the gun is, IIRC, a federal law which allows for the transport of firearms through restricted areas like national parks. Of course, permit holders are exempt from the loaded firearm in vehicle law.

So just to reiterate, without a permit your gun must be legally unloaded and either in plain sight or concealed somewhere that's not readily accessible.