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If Curt Oda says it was a good move, then I'm done with this argument. His word is as good as gold to me because he's one Rep that I know tells it how it is and if that's what he says, then I believe it and I believe that he's making the best move for RKBA.
 

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Yeah, Curtis Oda seems to be a real good guy in this fight. Even after receiving my less than flattering email, he responded with courtesy and professionalism and explained WHY the bill had to be changed. I'm glad he's on our side.
 

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Here is the reply I got from Curt Oda:

Richard,

We had to go strictly to Disorderly Conduct for now. This bill does two things. First, it helps clarify what Disorderly Conduct is. Second, that clarification is inserted into the sections that states that all public subsectors of the state are subject to the statewide preemption and cannot charge for disorderly for the mere presence of a firearm. The original bill went into areas that would cause a lot of opposition. These are best left for the future to get it right. The one area we cannot ever go into is the criminal trespass section.

This is called incrementalism. We take what we can get and work on others later.

I've worked very hard to get us to where we are. Prior to 2006, we were always on the defense, trying to stop bad anti-gun bills. We have been able to take back a bunch over the past 5 years and this year again, we have several bills being presented. But we cannot get it all at once!

Sincerely,
Curt Oda
I will withhold further comment for now.
 

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If I remember right it's a $600 fine for carrying a weapon in a house of worship that doesn't permit it if you're prosecuted. If you're carrying in church and if you need to protect yourself, a $600 fine is going to be near the bottom of the list of things that your worried about. If you protect yourself against a legitimate threat, I have a hard time seeing anyone prosecute you on that detail. Just my thoughts and IANAL.

On another note......anything we can do to support this bill?
 

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hibby76 said:
If I remember right it's a $600 fine for carrying a weapon in a house of worship that doesn't permit it if you're prosecuted. If you're carrying in church and if you need to protect yourself, a $600 fine is going to be near the bottom of the list of things that your worried about. If you protect yourself against a legitimate threat, I have a hard time seeing anyone prosecute you on that detail. Just my thoughts and IANAL.

On another note......anything we can do to support this bill?
It's an infraction which means there is no defined punishment ror the crime.
 

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UtahJarhead said:
hibby76 said:
If I remember right it's a $600 fine for carrying a weapon in a house of worship that doesn't permit it if you're prosecuted. If you're carrying in church and if you need to protect yourself, a $600 fine is going to be near the bottom of the list of things that your worried about. If you protect yourself against a legitimate threat, I have a hard time seeing anyone prosecute you on that detail. Just my thoughts and IANAL.

On another note......anything we can do to support this bill?
It's an infraction which means there is no defined punishment ror the crime.
Infractions are punishable by a fine of up to $750, same as a class C misdemeanor

76-3-301. Fines of persons.
(1) A person convicted of an offense may be sentenced to pay a fine, not exceeding:
(a) $10,000 for a felony conviction of the first degree or second degree;
(b) $5,000 for a felony conviction of the third degree;
(c) $2,500 for a class A misdemeanor conviction;
(d) $1,000 for a class B misdemeanor conviction;
(e) $750 for a class C misdemeanor conviction or infraction conviction; and
(f) any greater amounts specifically authorized by statute.
(2) This section does not apply to a corporation, association, partnership, government, or governmental instrumentality.
For this infraction, the law also specifies that a single conviction is not grounds for revoking the person's permit, which means that two convictions may be, at the discretion of either the judge or the BCI.
 

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Don't kill the messenger, folks!
76-3-105 said:
Infractions.
(1) Infractions are not classified.
(2) Any offense which is an infraction within this code is expressly designated and any offense defined outside this code which is not designated as a felony or misdemeanor and for which no penalty is specified is an infraction.
Edit: Re-reading that, I had it slightly off. It's not that infractions have no defined penalty, but those crimes which have no penalty defined are then an infraction. Heh... funny, that.
 

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Alright here is what I need in order to help bring this bill pass the senate committee.

If anyone want's to testify at the Senate committee I would like to ask a few things from you.

1st) Suite and Tie if possible if not very nice dress would be preferred. If we can refrain from open carrying this would ease the minds of this mostly democratic committee.
2nd) At the moment if you testify we need to avoid open carrying angle and focus on other aspects of the bill.
for example
A.) This bill will give Law Enforcement a better tool to enforce existing firearm bills I.E. The man in Orem with the rifle would have been easier to charged under this new wording.
B.) As a lawful citizen here in Utah this would cover me if my firearm accidentally was exposed.

3.) My goal is to see this crucial piece of legislation progress past the committee and into the House and Senate for the legislature to vote on.

I would like to thank everyone so far who has taken the time to write their legislature or contact them by phone,email, or in person.
lets keep up the good work and put the group in a good light.

Thanks
Zach
 

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Discussion Starter · #149 ·
I still have the prepared remarks I intended to give in the House committee mtg but missed due to a conflict. I don't see where it's scheduled for any Senate committee yet. Do you have any additional information?

Better yet, call me at 801-916-4272.
 

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I urge everyone to sign up for GOUtah! alerts. Here is the latest one; It pertains to HB 49 specifically.

Charles

GOUtah! Alert #349 - 2 February 2012

Today's Maxim of Liberty:

"Large numbers of Americans tote guns because they're assertive, self-reliant citizens, not docile subjects of a permanent governing class. The Second Amendment is philosophically consistent with the First Amendment…..Both amendments embody the American view that liberty is not the gift of the state, and its defense cannot be outsourced exclusively to the government."

-- Mark Steyn

In this Alert:
Pro-Gun Bill HB 49 Needs Your Support
How to be Effective at Defending Your Rights
Action Item

PRO-GUN BILL HB 49 GOES TO FLOOR OF HOUSE

It's that time of year again. The Utah State Legislature has begun its annual general session. If you're new to the political process, please read our tutorial below to learn how you can become highly effective at protecting your right to own and carry firearms.

One of the most important bills this session is HB 49, sponsored by Rep. Paul Ray (R-13). GOUtah! strongly supports this bill. HB 49 does two good things. First, it amends the existing legal definition of "disorderly conduct" to make it clear that the lawful possession of a firearm does not in and of itself constitute disorderly conduct unless accompanied by some sort of disorderly behavior.

HB 49 is designed to ensure that state and local authorities in Utah can't use the pretext of "disorderly conduct" to bust you just because you're exercising your constitutional right to possess or carry a firearm in a manner that's completely peaceable and lawful.

Second, HB 49 explicitly prohibits municipalities from enacting policies regulating the possession of firearms unless specifically authorized to do so by the legislature. This prohibition is already in place elsewhere in the Utah Code, but HB 49 adds another layer of reinforcement. In particular, HB 49 specifically prohibits any state or municipal entity from enacting any ordinance or regulation that declares the mere lawful possession of a firearm, in the absence of any other behavior, to be "disorderly conduct".

HB 49 passed the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee and now goes to the floor of the House, where it will be voted on in the near future. Please go to the Action Item at the end of this alert to see what you can do to help pass this bill.

HOW YOU CAN BE EFFECTIVE AT PROTECTING YOUR RIGHTS

Most voters never bother to write a letter or make a phone call to their elected officials. Thus, your willingness to write a few letters or send a few e-mails or make a few phone calls during the next six weeks will put you in an elite minority of gun owners who are willing to make a significant effort to protect the right to keep and bear arms. And you'll be able to have a much greater impact on the legislative process than the thousands of gun owners who don't do anything.

Every time there's a major new threat to the Second Amendment, millions of Americans start to panic-buy guns and ammunition out of fear that new restrictions will be enacted by the government. However, based on our conversations with many gun owners, we've reached the sad conclusion that a lot of folks who are willing to plunk down hundreds or even thousands of dollars on guns and ammo in such situations won't lift a finger to actually help prevent new anti-gun laws from being passed or to help pass laws to protect the right to keep and bear arms.

It really doesn't take much effort to make a difference. If you plan on setting aside a few minutes each week during the six-week legislative session, you can have an enormous impact.

In our experience in dealing with the Utah Legislature, we've often found that a few hundred letters to legislators from gun owners around the state can make the difference between a good outcome and a bad outcome on a given piece of legislation. We hope that you'll choose to be one of the tiny minority of gun owners in Utah willing to put forth some effort to defend the right to keep and bear arms, rather than being one of the hundreds of thousands who do nothing.

We'll make it easy for you to act. When there's an important gun-related bill, we'll provide you with a pre-written letter that you can copy and send, and we'll tell you whom to send it to. Feel free to write your own letter, of course. But the number of letters received by an elected official will tend to be what really counts. So if you don't have the time or inclination to compose your own letter, please use one of our pre-written letters and fill in the blanks and sign it and send it.

To find out who your Utah State Representative and your Utah State Senator are, you can go to the following link:

http://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

For the names and contact info of all your state and federal elected officials, you can go to GOUtah!'s Legislative Contacts page at:

http://www.goutahorg.org/address.html

ACTION ITEM

Please contact your Utah State Representative and ask him to vote for HB 49, and to oppose any hostile amendments to the bill.

If you already know the name of your Representative, you can find his contact information by going to GOUtah!'s website:

http://www.goutahorg.org/address.html

If you don't know who your Representative is, you can find out on the official Legislature website:

http://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

Feel free to copy the pre-written letter below and fill in the blanks and send it via mail, fax, or e-mail.

Utah House of Representatives
P.O. Box 145030
Salt Lake City, Utah 84114
Phone: (801) 538-1029
Fax: (801) 326-1544

_____________________________________________
That concludes GOUtah! Alert #349 - 2 February 2012.
Copyright 2012 by GOUtah! All rights reserved.

PRE-WRITTEN LETTER BELOW

----- Cut here ------

Date:

From:

To:

Dear Rep. _________________:

As one of your constituents, I encourage you to vote for HB 49 Substitute, sponsored by Rep. Paul Ray. This bill clarifies that the mere lawful possession of a firearm, absent any other behavior, cannot in and of itself be defined as disorderly conduct.

It makes no sense for local authorities to be empowered to arrest or cite a person for peaceably exercising his right to possess a firearm in a perfectly legal manner without engaging in threatening or disorderly behavior. HB 49 Substitute would prevent state and local government entities from enacting ordinances of this type while leaving them ample authority to prohibit actual disorderly conduct.

Please get back to me and let me know how you voted on HB 49 Substitute. Thanks for taking time to consider my views on this matter.

Sincerely,

----- Cut here ------

------------------------------------

To Subscribe, send a blank message to:
[email protected]
 

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Did it, and got a positive reply in under five minutes from my Rep, John Dougall.
 

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bagpiper said:
I urge everyone to sign up for GOUtah! alerts.
If GOUtah! were not using Yahoo Groups (one of the biggest SPAM generators on the internet) I would.
 

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Latest alert from GOUtah! on this bill:

From: "GOUtah!" <[email protected]>
Date: Feb 17, 2012 12:43 PM
Subject: Alert #351
To: "GOUtah! Yahoo!" <[email protected]>

GOUtah!
(Gun Owners of Utah)
http://www.goutahorg.org

Utah's Uncompromising Independent Gun Rights Network.
No Surrender. No Retreat. Not Now. Not Ever.

To subscribe to or unsubscribe from these e-mail alerts, please send a blank
e-mail message to either: [email protected] or
[email protected]

____________________________________

GOUtah! Alert #351 - 17 February 2012

Today's Maxim of Liberty:

"The police can't stop an intruder, mugger, or stalker from hurting you. They
can pursue him only after he has hurt or killed you. Protecting yourself from
harm is your responsibility, and you are far less likely to be hurt in a
neighborhood of gun owners than in one of disarmed citizens - even if you don't
own a gun yourself."

-- Harry Browne

In this Alert:

Immediate Action Needed on HB 49

HB 49 UNDER ASSAULT. YOUR HELP NEEDED TODAY!

HB 49, sponsored by Rep. Paul Ray, is intended to reform the state's "disorderly
conduct" statute in order to prevent the police from harassing you or citing you
for the mere act of carrying a firearm in a legal and peaceable manner, either
openly or concealed. HB 49 will soon be heard on the floor of the House, where
it will be open to amendment. GOUtah! supports HB 49 as currently written, and
we will support any amendments that clearly strengthen the bill's protection of
gun owners, but we will oppose any amendments that would weaken those
protections.

Unfortunately, our sources have told us that at least two major lobbying groups
representing police chiefs and city governments have managed to sway enough
legislators to oppose this bill so that it might not currently have the votes to
pass in the House. These groups represent local government entities and
bureaucrats. They don't represent you. Your Utah State Representative needs to
hear from you today, and the bill's sponsor needs to be encouraged to support
amendments only if those amendments strengthen the bill, and to avoid the
potential temptation to water down the bill just to get it passed.

GOUtah! would like to see the bill voted on either as currently written, or with
friendly amendments that would reinforce the intent of the bill, which is to
enable you to legally and peaceably carry a self-defense weapon without fear of
being harassed or cited by the authorities, and we'll oppose any attempt to
water down the bill to get it to pass. We'd rather have a clean up-or-down vote
on a good, strong bill, even if that bill fails, than to have a watered-down
bill pass. This is an election year, and an up-or-down vote on a good bill,
regardless of whether it passes, will enable us to see which of our legislators
actually support the right to keep and bear arms, and which ones do not. This
will enable us to determine which legislators deserve to be reelected in 2012
and which ones do not.

Please go to the action item below to see what you can to to help. Please act
today.

ACTION ITEM

Please do two things:

Contact Rep. Paul Ray immediately. Use the first pre-written letter below if
you wish by filling in the blanks and faxing it or e-mailing it, or call Rep.
Ray and leave the following message: "Please support HB 49 either as written,
or with amendments that would strengthen the bill. Please oppose any amendments
that would weaken the bill's protection of gun owners."

Rep. Paul Ray
e-mail: [email protected]
Cell phone: 801-725-2719
House switchboard to leave a message: (801) 538-1029
House Fax: (801) 326-1544

Then contact your own Utah State Representative and deliver the same message.
Please remember to let him know that you live in his district.

Click on the following link to find your State Representative and his contact
info:

http://www.le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

If you already know the name of your State Representative, go here to find his
contact info:

http://www.goutahorg.org/address.html#sthouse

________________________________________
That concludes GOUtah! Alert #351 - 17 February 2012.
Copyright 2012 by GOUtah! All rights reserved.

PRE-WRITTEN LETTER BELOW

----- Cut here ------

Date:

From:

To: Rep. Paul Ray
e-mail: [email protected]
Fax: (801) 326-1544

Dear Rep. Ray:

As a gun owner, I appreciate your sponsorship of HB 49, and I encourage you to
support the bill either as written, or with amendments that strengthen the
bill's protection of my right to peaceably and lawfully carry a firearm without
being harassed or cited by the authorities. Please oppose any amendments that
would weaken the bill's protection of my rights.

This is an election year, and by having a clean vote on a strong bill, we can
see which legislators support the right to keep and bear arms and which
legislators oppose this right. I'd rather see an up or down vote on a strong
bill than see a weakened bill pass.

Thanks for taking time to consider my views on this matter.

Sincerely,

----- Cut here ------

Date:

From:

To:

Dear Rep. ___________________:

As an active voter living in your district, I encourage you to support HB 49
(sponsored by Rep. Pul Ray) either as currently written, or with amendments that
strengthen the bill's protection of my right to carry a self-defense weapon in a
manner that's peaceable and lawful without being harassed or cited by the
authorities. Please oppose any amendments that would weaken the bill's
protection of my rights.

Thanks for taking time to consider my views on this matter. Please let me know
how you voted on HB 49 and any amendments that get introduced.

Sincerely,

----- Cut here ------
 

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Question Bagpiper. Why did you strip out Rep Ray's email address every time. It's a matter of public record, and having it in the post will make people more likely to take the 10 seconds needed to send the emails. But if they have to take the time to look up the address the likelihood of sending the messages drops substantially.
 

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DaKnife said:
Question Bagpiper. Why did you strip out Rep Ray's email address every time. It's a matter of public record, and having it in the post will make people more likely to take the 10 seconds needed to send the emails. But if they have to take the time to look up the address the likelihood of sending the messages drops substantially.
Doh. I just noticed that.

I didn't strip it out. That is a "feature" of how yahoogroups displays email addresses in messages. I just cut and pasted without noticing that detail. Ah, the joys of running a pro-RKBA operation on zero budget.

Anyone want to become fundraising chair for GOUtah! It may be time to move from zero budget grassroots to having a little money for things like professional email distribution.

I'll try to corrent that in the future.

Charles
 

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Anything new with this bill of which anyone is aware? I'm guessing that if/when it gets introduced this session, it will have a different number and we might want to start a new thread for it.
 
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