Utah Legislative Codes versus Administrative codes

1482 Views 4 Replies 3 Participants Last post by kev4, May 25, 2008

kev4

Discussion Starter · May 22, 2008

Sorry I keep bringing this up. The more I carry the more I want to be able to carry everywhere. Plus, the underreported national statistics from OSHA found that the incidence of workplace violence for all occupations was 12.6 per 1000. For physicians it is 16.2 per 1000. For nurses it is 21.9 per 1000. For all mental health professionals it is 68.2 per 1000! I deal with dangerous people. The mentally ill ones really don't bother me at all. It's all the court ordered drug addicts/felons that tell me they carry guns and who have a history of mental/emotional instability that worry me!

Utah Administrative Code says this about weapons at certain kinds of mental health facilities (http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code ... 01.htm#T17):

R523-1-19. Prohibited Items and Devices on the Grounds of Public Mental Health Facilities.
(1) Pursuant to the requirements of Subsection 62A-12-202 (9), and Sections 76-10-523.5, 76-8-311.1, and 76-8-311.3, all facilities owned or operated by community mental health centers that have any contracts with local mental health authority and/or the Utah State Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health are designated as secure areas. Accordingly all weapons, contraband, controlled substances, implements of escape, ammunition, explosives, spirituous or fermented liquors, firearms, or any other devices that are normally considered to be weapons are prohibited from entry into community mental health centers. There shall be a prominent visual notice of secure area designation. Law enforcement personnel are authorized to carry firearms while completing official duties on the grounds of those facilities.

I don't even know the difference between the Utah Code and the Utah Administrative Code from the Division of Administrative Rules. We have a little printed paper citing the above rule R523-1-19 posted at a side door in our office so it isn't even visible. I haven't been able to find anything in the Administrative Code which acknowledges CCW laws either to uphold them or to prohibit them.

How do you think the Utah CCW laws under the Utah State Legislative Code apply to this Division of Administrative Rules Administrative Code?

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UtahCFP

· #2 · May 23, 2008

The guidelines that CFP instructors use says Mental Health Facilities are off-limits if they are designated as secure areas.

F. Permit holders need to be aware of areas where they can not posses a
firearm. Restricted areas include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Airports secure areas
2. Court secure areas
3. Jail secure areas
4. Post Offices
5. National Parks and monuments
6. Federal Buildings
7. Correctional and Mental Health Facilities
8. A house of worship (must be posted with BCI)
9. A private residence if notice is given (verbal/posted sign)
10. Any area designated secure or otherwise prohibited by State or Federal Law
http://www.bci.utah.gov/CFP/TRANGUIDELINES.pdf

76-8-311.1(2)(a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_031101.htm

76-8-311.3(4)(d) Any person who, without the permission of the authority operating the correctional facility or the secure area of a mental health facility, knowingly possesses at a correctional facility or a secure area of a mental health facility any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or implement of escape is guilty of a third degree felony.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_031103.htm

76-10-523.5. Compliance with rules for secure facilities.
Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapons, shall comply with any rule established for secure facilities pursuant to Sections 53B-3-103, 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3, and 78-7-6 and shall be subject to any penalty provided in those sections.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052305.htm

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kev4

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 23, 2008

Thanks.

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Thomas

· #4 · May 24, 2008

What I have always told my students is that this is a grey area as far as the "secure area" thing. BCI says you can not carry at a mental health facility and you can have your license pulled if you violate these rules. However, according to the Utah Criminal Code. You can only commit a Felony if it is within the secured area of a mental health facility. This is one of the areas I have requested BCI take a look at to make their rules match the criminal code.

BTW.. I doubt they would pull your license if you were caught carrying in a non-secure area on the facility once. It falls under the same pervue as the church rules. Where there is no "law" stating you can not carry. There is a administrative rule saying you are not allowed to. I am pretty sure if you continued to violate these rules they would eventually pull your permit.

Just my $0.02 worth.

UtahCFP said:
The guidelines that CFP instructors use says Mental Health Facilities are off-limits if they are designated as secure areas.

F. Permit holders need to be aware of areas where they can not posses a
firearm. Restricted areas include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Airports secure areas
2. Court secure areas
3. Jail secure areas
4. Post Offices
5. National Parks and monuments
6. Federal Buildings
7. Correctional and Mental Health Facilities
8. A house of worship (must be posted with BCI)
9. A private residence if notice is given (verbal/posted sign)
10. Any area designated secure or otherwise prohibited by State or Federal Law
http://www.bci.utah.gov/CFP/TRANGUIDELINES.pdf

76-8-311.1(2)(a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_031101.htm

76-8-311.3(4)(d) Any person who, without the permission of the authority operating the correctional facility or the secure area of a mental health facility, knowingly possesses at a correctional facility or a secure area of a mental health facility any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or implement of escape is guilty of a third degree felony.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_031103.htm

76-10-523.5. Compliance with rules for secure facilities.
Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapons, shall comply with any rule established for secure facilities pursuant to Sections 53B-3-103, 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3, and 78-7-6 and shall be subject to any penalty provided in those sections.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052305.htm

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kev4

Discussion Starter · #5 · May 25, 2008

Thank you again. This is just one of those things that has not been very clear to me. BCI told me that concealed carry in a mental health facility was not prohibited, that concealed carry was only restricted in "secured" areas of mental health facilities which they said meant behind locked areas where you have to go through "security" with metal detectors, locked doors and such. (Like you have to do when entering a jail.) Basically, the only mental health facilities that have that security is the State Hospital and perhaps some other psychiatric units at a hospital. Then I found an administrative code which says that "all facilities owned or operated by community mental health centers that have any contracts with local mental health authority and/or the Utah State Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health are designated as secure areas." So, it sounds like even though there is absolutely nothing "secure" about where I work the State says it is "secure" and I am barred from carrying concealed. The mentally ill really do not concern me much at all. I am really bothered by all of the criminals and drug users that are court ordered to come for an evaluation and treatment. Many of them have told me that they own and carry guns. These are convicted felons! Many of these people have no regard for anyone but themselves and their history of impulsivity, disregard for rules, and mental instability worries me. There have been a few times where people have left angry and I was genuinely concerned for the safety of myself and everyone I work with knowing that all we have to protect ourselves are three digits on the telephone.

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