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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Given that Utah laws don't restrict open carry (loaded or one-action-fire for CFPs, unloaded or two-action-fire for non-CFPs), I was pleased to find OpenCarry.org with a Utah-specific forum.

Where do YOU carry openly?
 

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Yes, that's a good site. I joined it shortly after it got up and going.
I sometimes carry concealed and sometimes openly, depending on the weather and on my mood. I probably conceal more than I open carry, but I do open carry when I don't feel like covering it up.

Places that I tend not to open carry? Well, I doubt I would open carry in any schools. The Socialist Indoctrination Camps seem to breed an irrational fear of guns that I would rather not get hassled about.

That's about the only restriction I think I have ever voluntarily exercised for open carry.

I don't carry in my church at all, because the law forbids me from doing so.
 

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I realize that I have the potential of calling a firestorm down on my head, but -
I just cruised over to Opencarry.org (a great site!). If you go to their traveler's map, the legend says:

Unlicenced Traveller's Map
Vehicle Carry of a Loaded Gun

And Utah is listed as a "No Unlicenced Carry" State

While this is, I believe, strickly accurate, it's a little misleading. My understanding is that the vehicle carry rules are the same as the open carry rules - the "two click rule".

What Say Ye?
 

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garyjandfamily said:
...My understanding is that the vehicle carry rules are the same as the open carry rules - the "two click rule".

What Say Ye?
Welcome to our forum !!

Don't get yourself arrested and prosecuted by misunderstanding the law.
You cannot carry in a car in that fashion without a CFP (Concealed Firearm Permit).

Without a CFP, your gun must be stored in such a way that it is not readily accessible. The center console or glove box don't count. You have to have it unloaded and out of reach, such as in the trunk. You will get yourself in a lot of trouble if you don't understand the law.

This is definitely a law that we need to change. Car-carry in Utah ought to be like in many other states. Your car should be considered an extension of your castle. A bill to pass a car-carry law was introduced last session, but never made it out of committee.

Check out these Handy Links to gun laws online for further reference.
 

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Jeff Johnson said:
Don't get yourself arrested and prosecuted by misunderstanding the law.
You cannot carry in a car in that fashion without a CFP (Concealed Firearm Permit).
That's an interesting opinion, but I should explain why this was on my mind -

My brother-in-law is an attorney, an ex-county procecuting attorney, and a member of the State Legislature. (I'll not use his name, since I have not asked for his permission) Over Christmas I had a chat with him about the failure of the car-carry law to reach the floor (it was killed in commitee) and his viewpoint was pretty interesting.

-WARNING- This is mostly my memory of his opinion of what the commitee thought!

My brother-in-law stated that it was his knowlege, and the knowlege of members of the commitee, that while you could not carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle (per state code), a gun that took at least two motions to fire was not concidered loaded, and so could be carried in a readliy accessable fashion in the vehicle. He called it the "two click rule". (I had never heard that term before) In his opinion, members of the commitee therefore felt that the car-carry law was unecessary, since:
1. Some level of car carry was already provided for in the "two click rule"
2. If you needed access to a loaded weapon in the car, the concealed carry permit was easy and inexpensive to obtain in Utah, so you should just go out and get one! If your safety depended on access to a loaded weapon in the car, didn't it also depend on access to a loaded weapon two feet from the car?

I also wonder if this isn't the reasoning behind the police coming out against this law. After all, given the assumptions above, wouldn't this bill only benefit those who cannot obtain a concealed weapons permit?

Let me say that I don't tell you this to prove my point. I have my permit, and so it makes no personal difference to me. I've thought for some time that this viewpoint should be presented here so that if this bill does come up before the committee again, we can use this information to present a well-reasoned, logical case for allowing it to come to a vote.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
…a gun that took at least two motions to fire was not concidered loaded.
That's correct, garyjandfamily. However, Jeff Johnson was also correct that possessing a "two-click" unloaded firearm in your automobile is specifically prohibited unless you're a concealed-firearm permitee. It appears to be the only double-standard between one- and two-click possession regardless of permit status.

> Utah Code 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
>
> (1)Â For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
>
> (2)Â Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
>
> (3)Â A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
 

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I don't read your conclusion about car carry in the section that you quoted, but that's not my point (I have a permit and so can carry, and am not any kind of legal expert anyway). It seems that my one legal source that I've consulted doesn't agree with this interpretation, but more importantly, my admittedly second-hand information says that our State Legislators don't agree with this interpretation! According to my information, the committee (which has at least one VERY experienced lawyer, Sen. Lyle Hillyard) that shelved the car-carry bill last year believes that you CAN at least "open carry" in a vehicle, and so the car-carry bill is unnecessary! If this is true, this bill, or any other like it, will never see the light of day until this inconsistancy in legal understanding is cleared up.
So I guess my questions for the group are:
1. Am I totaly misinformed here? Has anyone else heard the reasoning behind the shelving of this bill?
2. Is this bill going to be re-introduced this session?
3. If so, or if it or one like it is going to be re-introduced at some future time, how do we put together a case to our legislators showing it should at least be allowed to reach the floor for a vote?

Thanks for listening!
 

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Gary,

You've forced me :D to go back and look at the statutes again. I also pulled out my copy of Utah Gun Law II: Pancho’s Wisdom by Attorney Mitch Vilos, which I read through about three or four years ago.

The result? I cannot support my earlier assertion. One of the things that I had remembered from my reading was a discussion in that book about a successful prosecution of a man who had a gun within reach in his car. However, that incident wasn't about a technically unloaded gun. I cannot find in the statutes where having a gun within reach in a car in Utah is illegal if it is technically unloaded.

Note: I am not an attorney, so don't take what I say as legal advice.

On the flip side, many states in the country, including many surrounding Utah (e.g. Idaho, Colorado & Nevada) have car-carry laws known as peaceable journey laws, which specifically allow people to have guns in their vehicles for self-defense.

The so-called two-click rule in Utah is confusing to many people who live here, let alone the people who drive through the state on vacation. We need to clean this up.

When I say the two-click rule is confusing, I mean that even in pro-gun discussion forums like this one, I see a lot of confusion about this aspect of Utah law. For example, is the gun in the following scenario loaded or unloaded?
A double-action revolver has six chambers, five of which have unexpended cartridges loaded.
The revolver is not cocked and the single unloaded chamber is the next one to rotate into firing position.
To fire this revolver in this configuration will require pulling the double-action trigger twice.
So what is it? Loaded or unloaded?

Answer: Loaded.

The pertinent statute is this:
U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
(emphasis added)

Part 1 is what makes the weapon described above legally loaded. The two-click rule isn't discussed until part 2.

This confusion makes Utah a bit gun-unfriendly compared to many states. Travelers can hardly be expected to know the subtleties of this law. We need to pass a peaceable journey law in Utah.
 

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WOW! That's pretty subtle! It would be interesting to know what part of this the average LEO would actually know. (I'm not cutting them down, I'm certain that the particulars of this law is not #1 on their list of things that they need to understand in order to stay alive and keep the ACLU off their back)
Perhaps the next time a car-carry bill comes along, we can promote it as a way to clean up this mess. Or maybe we should just make sure we get as many people licenced as possible.

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion.

Thanks
 

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David Nelson said:
Given that Utah laws don't restrict open carry (loaded or one-action-fire for CFPs, unloaded or two-action-fire for non-CFPs), I was pleased to find OpenCarry.org with a Utah-specific forum.

Where do YOU carry openly?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty much Everywhere
 

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I just had a friend complete Utah’s POST training (at UVSC) and has started working for the police here in Utah. While in POST he was informed that OC was illegal without a permit and was not advised with a permit. Now I know this is not the case, but it is a reminder that the average LEO may not be aware of the laws. In this case they had a long discussion in class and after the state laws were pulled to reference the instructor agreed that it was legal to OC, but still not advised. Know the laws and know your rights so you don’t get busted because of what a friend/cop/internet said was legal or illegal.
 

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garyjandfamily said:
I don't read your conclusion about car carry in the section that you quoted, but that's not my point (I have a permit and so can carry, and am not any kind of legal expert anyway). It seems that my one legal source that I've consulted doesn't agree with this interpretation, but more importantly, my admittedly second-hand information says that our State Legislators don't agree with this interpretation! According to my information, the committee (which has at least one VERY experienced lawyer, Sen. Lyle Hillyard) that shelved the car-carry bill last year believes that you CAN at least "open carry" in a vehicle, and so the car-carry bill is unnecessary! If this is true, this bill, or any other like it, will never see the light of day until this inconsistancy in legal understanding is cleared up.
So I guess my questions for the group are:
1. Am I totaly misinformed here? Has anyone else heard the reasoning behind the shelving of this bill?
2. Is this bill going to be re-introduced this session?
3. If so, or if it or one like it is going to be re-introduced at some future time, how do we put together a case to our legislators showing it should at least be allowed to reach the floor for a vote?

Thanks for listening!
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Utah Code Section 76-10-50576-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street. (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm: ...

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C034.ZIP 1,712 Bytes

"authorized by law" is a CFP holder

just my .45
 
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