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Tuesday night my wife and I watched a Dateline special where they set up certain situations and with hidden cameras watched how people responded. The one that I found most interesting was 3 teenage boys "bum bashing" where they pick on or beat up a local bum on the street. They were doing this in the middle of the day in plain view to everyone. They had different scenarios one of which included the boys using a fake rubber bat (to not hurt the bum actor) and were actually hitting the bum with the bat. There were a bunch of people that came to the defense of the bum. What I got thinking about is what would I do in that situation. I am certain I would go over and intervene. The question I wondered about is what would I do if I were carrying (which I would be) and how would I deal with the situation. I am observing what to me appears to be a felony assault. I would definetely go into the situation without my gun drawn and I would probably only draw if I started to feel threatened personally....if the kids came after me with the bat my gun would come out. I would hope that I could verbally chase the kids off but if that didn't work quickly what would I do? I did wonder what the consequences would be if as I was telling the teenagers to back off if I switched from concealed carry to open carry. I would do this making sure that the punk kids saw my gun. Not drawing it, but revealing it so I was now in an open carry situation. I can't decide if this would be a good way to make it clear you weren't messing around or if it would just lead to trouble. 3 punk kids make me nervous because they are so stupid you don't know what they are going to do. I believe legally I would be within the law as I am intervening to prevent a violent felony (assault) but I really am not sure. I also thought that maybe it would be best to go into open carry before you entered the situation. What do you guys think and how would you respond?
 

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PW said:
I believe legally I would be within the law as I am intervening to prevent a violent felony (assault) but I really am not sure.
I believe that is correct as well. Not only is it three against one, but one is using what you believe to be a deadly weapon. You would definitely be within the law by drawing on the kids and attempting to detain them until police arrive.

PW said:
I also thought that maybe it would be best to go into open carry before you entered the situation.
I think that's exactly what I would do. I'm not certain that I would draw my handgun, but I would expose it and probably keep my hand on the grip for quick access in case they rushed me. The first thing I would want to do is get them to stop beating the guy, and secondly I would try detaining them while calling 911.

I would think that television shows like this are assuming quite a bit of liability for staging such a stupid stunt. The potential consequences (such as having a concealed weapon carrier intervene) could be disastrous.
 

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Udink said:
I would think that television shows like this are assuming quite a bit of liability for staging such a stupid stunt. The potential consequences (such as having a concealed weapon carrier intervene) could be disastrous.
The show was probably shot in california so they probably don't have to worry about concealed weapon holders much there.
 

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I think I would definitely expose my gun while retaining it in the holster... in Utah, OC is still legal (THANKFULLY!) and there is no law against brandishing. In this case I believe you would be fully legal in doing so b/c you could easily argue:

1) It's legal to OC
2) You switched to OC not to threaten but to ensure you had quick access given the fact that you were outnumbered by 3 guys with baseball bats who were already committing a felony

The "?" that remains is what do you do if they just ignore you and continue to beat the guy??? Obviously you would start with a call to 911. But what then??? I guess it all depends on the hits they are making... if they are hitting him in the legs you might have a harder time defending an action to actually shoot them than if they were hitting him in the head and such. Honestly, I'm not sure of the best approach... this is a good question!
 

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bane said:
The "?" that remains is what do you do if they just ignore you and continue to beat the guy??? Obviously you would start with a call to 911. But what then??? I guess it all depends on the hits they are making... if they are hitting him in the legs you might have a harder time defending an action to actually shoot them than if they were hitting him in the head and such. Honestly, I'm not sure of the best approach... this is a good question!
You would be legally justified in using deadly force against them. Utah Code Section 76-2-404 (1) states (with the relevant parts bolded by me):

"A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

I would consider any harm done with a baseball bat to be "serious bodily injury."
 

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bane said:
I think I would definitely expose my gun while retaining it in the holster... in Utah, OC is still legal (THANKFULLY!) and there is no law against brandishing.
While there is no law against brandishing, it's pretty easy to argue that showing someone your gun in an intimidating manner is assault. I'm not saying it is, but a sleazy lawyer or an anti-gun prosecutor may sure see things that way.

I would do nothing different than that above, but I would not "reveal" my gun or make sure they saw my gun, but I would certainly position myself and my clothing to allow quick and easy access to my gun "because I felt threatened" and if they happen to see my gun and that I'm postured in a way that indicates I have a gun, then so be it.

The difference is rather subtle, but if your intention is to show your gun vs. have your gun ready for use, that could make a difference.

As others have said, this is a tough call, but thinking through what we would do in such situations is important preparation for if we ever find ourselves facing something like this.
 

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apollosmith said:
bane said:
I think I would definitely expose my gun while retaining it in the holster... in Utah, OC is still legal (THANKFULLY!) and there is no law against brandishing.
While there is no law against brandishing, it's pretty easy to argue that showing someone your gun in an intimidating manner is assault. I'm not saying it is, but a sleazy lawyer or an anti-gun prosecutor may sure see things that way.

I would do nothing different than that above, but I would not "reveal" my gun or make sure they saw my gun, but I would certainly position myself and my clothing to allow quick and easy access to my gun "because I felt threatened" and if they happen to see my gun and that I'm postured in a way that indicates I have a gun, then so be it.

The difference is rather subtle, but if your intention is to show your gun vs. have your gun ready for use, that could make a difference.

As others have said, this is a tough call, but thinking through what we would do in such situations is important preparation for if we ever find ourselves facing something like this.
This is why I thought that moving your gun to open carry BEFORE entering the situation may be your best option. Most likely when the punks see the gun they will think twice about what they are doing.
 

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I can't imagine some punks beating a homeless guy for fun would stick around if they thought you had a gun or the police had been called. Before I confronted them I wold call the police if I thought there was enough time. I would have positions my self so that I had quick access to my gun but not drawn it and I would have yelled for them to stop and tell them that I was going to call the cops. If at that point they don't stop (I think really unlikely) the I would draw and tell them if they don't stop I will be forced to shoot to save that man. If at that point they don't stop (really really unlikely) and it looks like there is a serious threat to the man's life I guess you would have to fire.
 

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I just hope they had some type plan in case someone came to the aid of the homeless guy with a gun, bat, or other deadly weapon. The result could make for whole different story.
 

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marksman said:
The show was probably shot in california so they probably don't have to worry about concealed weapon holders much there.
Last count I saw was well over 50,000 permits issued. Some counties are essentially shall-issue.
 

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Car Knocker said:
marksman said:
The show was probably shot in california so they probably don't have to worry about concealed weapon holders much there.
Last count I saw was well over 50,000 permits issued. Some counties are essentially shall-issue.
I'm not familiar with california laws, and I haven't looked it up. Do you know if those permits are only good in the counties in which they are issued or if they are good throughout the state?
 

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apollosmith said:
bane said:
I think I would definitely expose my gun while retaining it in the holster... in Utah, OC is still legal (THANKFULLY!) and there is no law against brandishing.
While there is no law against brandishing, it's pretty easy to argue that showing someone your gun in an intimidating manner is assault.
Given that you would be legally justified if you chose to draw and fire, I don't think an assault charge for merely exposing the gun would stick.

OTOH, better safe than sorry, and clearing your cover garment and putting your hand on the grip ready to draw is a very reasonable thing to do before attempting to stop an assault with a deadly weapon.

Another consideration is how you're carrying. I occasionally use a SmartCarry holster and given the fact that it takes a little longer (not much, but a little) to draw from such a holster, I think I'd draw before intervening, probably to the "Sul" position, since it's about as safe and non-threatening a position as possible while also being able to bring the gun into play instantly if necessary.

Just putting your hand on the grip of a gun in a SmartCarry might... er... send the wrong message to the punks. ;)
 

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apollosmith said:
While there is no law against brandishing, it's pretty easy to argue that showing someone your gun in an intimidating manner is assault. I'm not saying it is, but a sleazy lawyer or an anti-gun prosecutor may sure see things that way.
Well the term brandish is not used, but it is illegal. 76-10-506 I know there are several definitions of brandishing that are floating around, but I have always used the following:

1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly 2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
I clarify because some use the term to describe incidental display of a weapon or other lawful uses. I do not.
 

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althor said:
I'm not familiar with california laws, and I haven't looked it up. Do you know if those permits are only good in the counties in which they are issued or if they are good throughout the state?
They're good throughout the state.
 
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