[Stang777]

Thank you UtahCFP, I really appreciate the nice answer

And thank you quychang. I do appreciate the answer from you too but I don't understand what was mud about my question, obviously it was understood.

 

[quychang]

Your question was clear as could be. The two pages of reading leading up to your question contained enough mud for a nice relaxing spa treatment. :lol3:

Mel

 

[Stang777]

Thank you for clarifying that quychang, I appreciate it.

 

[Stang777]

For a revolver no round under the hammer and no round in the next space in rotation!

The above is the part I find confusing. I am guessing that the part about no round under the hammer means that there is not a bullet in line with the barrel, but in my DAO revolver, that bullet rotates out when the trigger is pulled and the round in the next space would be the one that would be fired. If that space is empty, one would have pull the trigger one more time before that gun would actually be fired. In a DAO revolver, that would make the required two actions.

I get the part about the space next in rotation needing to be empty, but what I don't get is, why the space under the hammer needs to be empty. Even if there is a bullet in that space, when the trigger is pulled, that bullet is going to rotate out and not be fired, so why does it need to be empty?

Unless I am missing something major, which is entirely possible, it seems like a DAO revolver that holds five bullets should be able to have four bullets in it to be Utah unloaded. The only space that need to be empty should be the one next in rotation.

What am I missing?

I don't know why I want to understand this, I have my permit, but I do want to understand this

 

[UnderratedF00l]

The reason you can't have a round under the hammer is because the cylinder only fully rotates if the hammer is pulled to cocked status, requiring a trigger pull to fire. If you only pull the hammer part of the way and release it, the cylinder springs back in to place and there most likely would be enough force generated by the hammer to discharge the round -- and that can be accomplished without a trigger pull.

If it were a hammer-less DAO revolver, then... hmm. You might have a case.

 

[Stang777]

Thank you for explaining it to me so well.

I am sorry, I probably made it more difficult by not making it clear that I was talking about a hammer-less DAO revolver. I thought all DAO revolvers were hammer-less, I thought that is what made them DAO.

I also figured that the part about under the hammer would just be translated to the bullet in line with the barrel when there wasn't a hammer so that section would still apply to a hammer-less DAO revolver. I probably should have asked about that.

If I am a little slow on all this it is because all things gun are rather new to me. I fired a gun for the first time just a couple of years ago and just bought my first gun about 3 months ago.

I really want to learn more about guns and I appreciate the info I have received from the people on this forum.

 

[divegeek]

Thank you for explaining it to me so well.

I am sorry, I probably made it more difficult by not making it clear that I was talking about a hammer-less DAO revolver. I thought all DAO revolvers were hammer-less, I thought that is what made them DAO.

Yeah, I don't see how a revolver could be DAO, unless it is hammerless.

Nevertheless, while quychang may be right about the theory behind the law, it's the actual words that matter, and the words say that a gun is loaded if there's a cartridge "in firing position". The law doesn't define what that means, but everyone (including the BCI) seems to have decided that it means "in the position a cartridge is when it is fired", i.e. lined up with the barrel. Nothing about whether or not there's a usable hammer.

So: Round under the hammer means the gun is loaded.

Separately, the law says that if the gun can be fired with a single mechanical action, it is loaded. For a DA or DAO revolver, that means a cartridge in the next chamber to rotate into firing position, since the cylinder rotates while the hammer is lifting (keep in mind that "hammerless" revolvers really do have a hammer, it's just cut down and shrouded).

So: Round in the next chamber in the cylinder means the gun is loaded.

Add it all up, and if either of those chambers contains a live round, your gun is legally loaded in Utah, which means you can only load three chambers if you want to be legally unloaded, per Utah's definition.

Also keep in mind that Utah's definition is Utah's definition. When it comes to federal laws, unloaded means unloaded -- no ammunition in the gun.

Interestingly, I have a SAO revolver which is utah-unloaded even when all five chambers are loaded. Why?

First part: Is there a round in firing position? No, because the safety on the gun is set by rotating the cylinder so the hammer is lowered into a notch between chambers. No round is lined up with the barrel. So according to that part of Utah's definition, the gun is not loaded.

Second part: Will a single mechanical action fire the gun? No, because it's SAO. Two actions are required: pulling the hammer back, which will also rotate a chamber into firing position, and pressing the trigger to drop the hammer onto the cartridge primer.

So, all five chambers loaded with live ammo, but still Utah-unloaded. Note that this pistol is a very tiny .22, not something I'd recommend as a carry gun. I just mentioned it to illustrate how to apply the definition to a different situation. A traditional single-action revolver does keep a chamber in line with the barrel and uses the half-cock hammer position to make it safe. So with one of those, you would still have to leave the chamber under the hammer empty.

Just for completeness, also consider a semi-auto. If there's a round in the chamber, it's loaded. If no round is in the chamber but the magazine is loaded, it will require at least two mechanical actions to load it: rack the slide then operate the trigger. So for a semi-auto you just have to ensure the chamber is empty.

Make sense?

 

[UnderratedF00l]

Thank you for explaining it to me so well.

I am sorry, I probably made it more difficult by not making it clear that I was talking about a hammer-less DAO revolver. I thought all DAO revolvers were hammer-less, I thought that is what made them DAO.

Yeah, I don't see how a revolver could be DAO, unless it is hammerless.

:ROFL:

Good point. I really need to quit posting at 1:50am.

Though, in my defense, there *are* shrouded hammer designs, where there's still a hammer, but it's just not.... useable.

Never mind.

 

[Stang777]

Thank you divegeek, I appreciate the thorough explanation, and yes, it does make sense.

UnderratedF00l, it's ok so please don't stop posting in the middle of the night, I don't want to be here all alone

 

[UtahCFP]

I also have one of the little .22 NAA revolver's that Divegeek was talking about (it is single action only). The only reason to carry it Utah unloaded would be if you don't have a concealed firearms permit, which would mean you are open carrying. The trick with the little tiny thing is open carrying is a bit tough...an OWB holster is bigger than the gun (e.g., http://shop.lostriverholsters.com/NAA-M ... -NAABH.htm). :wink:

 

[Kevin Jensen]

I am confused, does this mean that in a DAO revolver (one with no hammer) that holds 5 rounds, that to be Utah unloaded, it can only be loaded with three bullets?

Yep.

Something noteworthy... Just because one does not have a permit, does not mean he always needs to carry unloaded.

Here is the law that states when and where you should carry unloaded without a permit.

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.

 

[divegeek]

I also have one of the little .22 NAA revolver's that Divegeek was talking about (it is single action only). The only reason to carry it Utah unloaded would be if you don't have a concealed firearms permit, which would mean you are open carrying. The trick with the little tiny thing is open carrying is a bit tough...an OWB holster is bigger than the gun (e.g., http://shop.lostriverholsters.com/NAA-M ... -NAABH.htm). :wink:

You could get one of those belt buckles. Is it concealing if it's in plain sight, but looks like a belt buckle decoration?

 

[bagpiper]

I also have one of the little .22 NAA revolver's that Divegeek was talking about (it is single action only). The only [legal] reason to carry it Utah unloaded would be if you don't have a concealed firearms permit, which would mean you are open carrying.

I fixed that for you. The law requires the gun to be Utah unloaded if carried in many locations. However, I'll assert that the primary reason to carry the .22 NAA mini-revolver "Utah-unloaded" is for drop safety. It is a direct hammer that rests on the primer of any shell in line with the barrel. No transfer bar nor other mechanism to isolate the hammer from the primer. The only safety feature is the half cocked position that locks the hammer slightly above the primer. But the hammer is still under spring pressure and the failure of the half cocked mechanism would result in the hammer falling on the primer. In contrast,a good safety is fail safe such that failures of the mechanism result in the gun not being able to fire.

So I don't consider half cocked above a live round a safe method to carry a firearm. So the choice is to either leave the cylinder under the hammer empty, or to lower the hammer into the locking channel between cylinders so that there is no round under the hammer. And either of those results in the gun being "Utah unloaded" since it is a single action.

Charles

 

[Car Knocker]

I also have one of the little .22 NAA revolver's that Divegeek was talking about (it is single action only). The only [legal] reason to carry it Utah unloaded would be if you don't have a concealed firearms permit, which would mean you are open carrying.

I fixed that for you. The law requires the gun to be Utah unloaded if carried in many locations. However, I'll assert that the primary reason to carry the .22 NAA mini-revolver "Utah-unloaded" is for drop safety. It is a direct hammer that rests on the primer of any shell in line with the barrel. No transfer bar nor other mechanism to isolate the hammer from the primer. The only safety feature is the half cocked position that locks the hammer slightly above the primer. But the hammer is still under spring pressure and the failure of the half cocked mechanism would result in the hammer falling on the primer. In contrast,a good safety is fail safe such that failures of the mechanism result in the gun not being able to fire.

So I don't consider half cocked above a live round a safe method to carry a firearm. So the choice is to either leave the cylinder under the hammer empty, or to lower the hammer into the locking channel between cylinders so that there is no round under the hammer. And either of those results in the gun being "Utah unloaded" since it is a single action.

Charles

I believe the hammer on the NAA mini-revolvers is able to rest in notches between the chambers and doesn't rest on the primer, although there is a half-cock option if one chooses to use it. Since it's a single-action revolver that needs to be manually cocked to fire, the safe way to carry it would be with the hammer resting in one of the safety notches, at least in my opinion.

 

[Kevin Jensen]

Here is a picture of how it looks. The hammer rests in that little rectangular notch between the cartridges.

 

[divegeek]

However, I'll assert that the primary reason to carry the .22 NAA mini-revolver "Utah-unloaded" is for drop safety.

Agreed. I think the only safe way to carry the mini-revolver is with the hammer down between chambers. It just so happens that when in that state it is also legally unloaded per Utah's definition.

 

[bagpiper]

I believe the hammer on the NAA mini-revolvers is able to rest in notches between the chambers and doesn't rest on the primer, although there is a half-cock option if one chooses to use it. Since it's a single-action revolver that needs to be manually cocked to fire, the safe way to carry it would be with the hammer resting in one of the safety notches, at least in my opinion.

Exactly.

 

[Sphix]

So I have a question that fits in this thread, although in a slightly different vein.

I took the CFP class this last weekend, and everything was explained to me extremely well, except for one thing: The instructor and his assistants seemed to believe that to be "Utah unloaded" a firearm must need two manual actions PLUS the trigger pull to fire. They claimed that guns with safeties were the only ones that would work for open-carry without a permit, as a draw would progress like this:

Gun drawn, with no round in the chamber but a full clip locked in.
1) Pull the slide back to chamber the round (First action).
2) Click the manual safety off (Second action).
3) Pull trigger (Fire).

Therefore, they claimed, a gun without a safety could never be "Utah unloaded" as the draw would progress like this:

Gun drawn, with no round in the chamber but a full clip locked in.
1) Pull the slide back to chamber the round (First action).
2) Pull trigger (Fire).

I get the general feeling that the instructor was misinformed about this, as I believe the second action IS the trigger pull and the way the law is written seems to support that theory.

So, my question: Under Utah law, is one of the two actions required for a gun to be Utah unloaded the trigger pull?

 

[althor]

In short, the law says that it's loaded if one manual operation will make it fire.

The instructor is wrong.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[Snurd]

The trigger pull is one of the actions. So a semi-auto handgun with a full mag and nothing in the chamber is Utah unloaded. Rack the slide and pull the trigger = two actions.

The first scenario that you posted seems really odd to me. I'm sure that some guns you can rack the slide and then disengage the safety. I believe the Beretta PX4 you can do this. But try that with a 1911. With the safety on, there is no way to rack the slide unless you disengage the it first. I also have a Browning Buckmark .22 that is the same way.

The law also says that there cannot be a round in the firing position, and that is why you can't have a round in the chamber. A gun with a safety could be unloaded under the "two action" rule if it had a safety without this piece of code. Take the safety off, pull the trigger = two actions. But since the code says you can't have anything in the firing position, a round cannot be chambered even if the gun has a safety to be Utah unloaded.