Lets be Fair...

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Lets be Fair...

Postby Digigdawg » Sat 17 Sep 2011 9:11 pm

Hi all,
I would like to start off by saying I love this forum. It is a great resource for CCW/OC information,personal opinion and most importantly the preservation of our rights. Sometimes it seems to me that the forum can lack consistency. I will explain below.

Generally most topics on this forum are focused on the second amendment as this is a CCW forum. What I do not understand, is the tenacious dedication of some individuals to protect our 2a rights (which I agree there should be) on this forum, and the casual/ "business as usually" attitude the very same individuals take of this very forums' restrictions on free speech. I am playing devil's advocate here, but this is still a valid concern. I in no way implying that members should post anything that is distasteful or not associated with the subject/discussion at hand. I am simply trying to start a conversation and understand how one is different from the other.

This section of the forum is a perfect example of my point. Many are willing to boycott an individual business due to the businesses policy/outlook on firearms. A business has every right to refuse service to an individual whenever/why ever they choose to do so, just as this forum does. Most individuals have the right to bear arms, just as most individuals have the right to free speech. A business may not prevent an individual from exercising their rights, but a business may request an individual to exercise those rights in a local other then that businesses property. The same is true for this forum. A business general makes policies that they feel are appropriate for their needs as well as their clientele's. The same is true of this forum. A business may decide to create a anti-gun policy if it chooses just as this forum may create anti-free speech policy if it chooses. So I guess that I am a little confused on why it is so inappropriate for a business to implement such restrictive/controlling (cannot think of the word) policy in relation to guns when this very forum is practicing similar policies in regards to free speech.

I understand that the forum strives to maintain a "family friendly" atmosphere. I am all for that and support whole-heartedly. I believe that restricting/controlling an individuals right for the sake of the "overall good" is generally not a good way to do business. It contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum. Claiming that restricting free speech promotes a "family friendly" atmosphere is attune to a business claiming anti gun policy promotes safety.

I feel that the forum can have a "family friendly" atmosphere while not purposefully limiting an individuals right to free speech. Why not have the ability for members to rate/give feedback on posts/individuals so we can police ourselves. Maybe have a rating for content and vulgarity pertaining to what the forum defines as "family friendly". This way the members of the forum can see if an individual poster uses less than "family friendly" tendencies and have the membership decide for ourselves if we wish to view that particular individual's posts.

I am not trying to cause trouble but instead open a dialogue. What is the difference? Why is one action acceptable while the other action insufferable? What can we do to change this perceived inconsistency?

I just do not see how we can tolerate one restriction of our rights while fighting so hard to protect another.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby JoeSparky » Sat 17 Sep 2011 10:14 pm

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference that you seem to have failed to notice between the GOVERNMENT restricting free speech and the PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS of the INDIVIDUALS (not government) that own and support this forum.
A private property owner has his rights to restrict what he will allow or disallow on/in his property.
A business owner can restrict what he will allow and disallow on his property BUT that does not mean that I have to support them. IF enough folks refuse to do business with one restricting our rights (Free Market) then they will either go out of business OR change what they will allow on theie property (not restrict my right to carry for self defense) and they may have a increase in sales and stay in business.
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Re: Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Snurd » Sat 17 Sep 2011 10:53 pm

First of all, this forum is nothing like a business. The founder and mods don't get paid to run this place. This forum is paid for by the founder and a relatively small number of the forum members. There is no fee to become a member. There is no advertising to bring in income, which I am thankful for. I dislike forums that have floating ads and irritating flashing boxes all over the place.
Comparing this forum to a business seems strange me. It is nothing of the sort.

Your statement
I understand that the forum strives to maintain a "family friendly" atmosphere. I am all for that and support whole-heartedly. I believe that restricting/controlling an individuals right for the sake of the "overall good" is generally not a good way to do business. It contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum. Claiming that restricting free speech promotes a "family friendly" atmosphere is attune to a business claiming anti gun policy promotes safety.
makes no sense. You are contradicting yourself by saying you whole-heartedly support a family friendly forum, then go on to say having a family friendly forum "contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum".

You are not being kept from speaking freely. You are welcome to swear all you want as you read this post. However, once you post swear words and other vulgar things, then "family friendly" goes out the window.

As I stated before, this is not a business. This forum is basically Thomas' house. He is the founder. He has made rules. It is like anyone elses house. He is not a government entity trying to take away rights. If someone were to come into my house and disrespect my rules, he would get the boot. Basically what you are saying is that it is okay for a child to swear up a storm and not obey the parents rule that says "no swearing". Let the children in the family rate the swearing, and then we can decide wether that person is someone we want to listen to. The parents are tromping on the childrens rights because they are not allowing free speech.

This is inaccurate. The children must respect the rules of the parents. Once the children are out of the house, then they can do what they want. However, while living under the parents roof, they are bound by the parents rules. Out of respect for the forum, founder and mods of the forum, we as members should respect their rules. It is not up to us to make our own rules. It is up to the owner of the house, and to those whom he has trusted to run the site in his absence. It is not up to the children to make up whatever rules suit them.

There is no way to have a family friendly forum and have uncensored posts running about like rabid billy goats.

There are a lot of other forums out there that are not family friendly, and IMO, they are so much worse than this one. People get in to fights and bash each other, or swear up a storm. How is that fun to read? I would say for the most part, even if someone swore a lot, it would not be fun for them to read constant swearing in a forum. It detracts from what the forum was built for. It is here to help people learn about concealed carry, carry laws, open carry, training, meet and greets, yada yada. Learning about these things is so much easier without all the clutter.

I don't mind when people swear when I am around them (to a point anyway). Sometimes a well placed swear word can be pretty funny. But why ruin a great forum by bringing in that kind of junk? What good could it do?

There have been a few bad apples among us from time to time. They would bash others and bring a foul mood to the threads. There is something to be said about a forum that has members that respect each other. There is something to be said about a forum that is upbeat and friendly. Who wants to read posts that bring people down, or swear so much that it is hard to understand what the person is trying to say?

IMO, you will not find a better forum that this one. You are welcome to swear all you want, just don't do it in the founders house.

Hopefully this makes sense, it is getting late.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby DaKnife » Sun 18 Sep 2011 6:48 am

And this discussion should probably be moved to the Rule Comments Complaints and Concerns since it has nothing to do with boycotting any business due to firearm restrictions or bad business practices.
SPOOOOOOON!!!

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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby My Trigger Guard » Sun 18 Sep 2011 7:00 am

I am only going to address one item you brought up. Family friendly atmosphere.

I do not see how including vulgarity or attacking someone directly restricts your ability to argue/debate/discuss or get your point across. If it does, then it stands to be that you didnt have a solid arguement to begin with. Other then that I think everyone else has already addressed your other thoughts without further need to chime.

TBH I enjoy a good debate, but the topic needs to be worthy and at the end it should either solidfy your believes or enlighten and change them. This topic has neither :ack:
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby UtahJarhead » Sun 18 Sep 2011 8:18 am

This is a Rated PG environment and that's where it stops. We're here voluntarily and we (usually) do like the fact that we don't have to worry about kids coming onto the forum. Since this is UTAH, the home of the LDS church, pushing it to be a rated R environment will drive out about 90% of the LDS families on here which is a LOT.

Thomas' goal, if I may be so bold, is to make sure the forum is accessible to as many people as possible so it can be a more valuable resource.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Digigdawg » Sun 18 Sep 2011 8:42 am

I never said having a "family friendly" forum "contradicts the spirit of the forum" or anything close to that. I do support a "family friendly atmosphere". I said "restricting/controlling an individuals right for the sake of the "overall good" is generally not a good way to do business. It contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum". Essentially I believe that the policy is inconsistent with the core values of the forum, not that the message or goal of a family friendly environment is bad.

Secondly, I am not advocating or promoting, cursing, vulgarity or attacks on individuals. If that is what you got out of the message I apologize as that is not the intention. Please point out specific references to such and I will edit them. On that note, do not confuse "free speech" with cursing,vulgarity or attacks. The problem is that taste is very subjective. What may offend some does not offend others.

You are most likely right that this forum is not a business. I was simply trying to compare the idea of an entity providing a service to a clientele. With the entity being the forum and the clientele being us, the members. I should have included individuals as well. With this being said, the main gist of the argument still applies.

I disagree with your analogy of the forum being our parents? I agree it is essential that a parent may discipline their children in most anyway they deem fit to maintain order. Though the point you make is a good one, it simply does not apply this conversation or to the forum. Though it is the forum's goal to maintain good order, In no way is like our parents, and in no way are we like it's children.

The whole point of this was to demonstrate a potential inconsistency in our forum. I am not complaining or trying to have the rules or format of the forum changed, simply playing devil's advocate. A healthy discussion never hurt anyone.

I agree with you JoeSparky 100%. The point I am trying to make is that we tolerate some individual's/businesses restrictions of rights while admonishing others(boycott list) for essentially doing the same thing. It seems a little contradictory to me.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Daeyel » Sun 18 Sep 2011 8:59 am

Anti-gun folks have shown little inclination to come here and debate issues with us. Mostly because humans tend to be xenophobic and try to stay with like peoples as much as possible. We would welcome a healthy debate based upon facts with any person or persons.

As far as language, I very much like the filters we have now. Using profanity weakens your argument.

Family friendly atmosphere ensures that all people are welcome, from the snobs to the rednecks. This is by far the best forum I have ever been a part of. The debate is lively (albeit one sided) and the members educated and motivated to have the right answers. I really would welcome a debate with Bradyites, but whenever we go to their forums to try, we get labelled trolls and banned. They never come here.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Snowman » Sun 18 Sep 2011 10:39 am

Digigdawg wrote:I never said having a "family friendly" forum "contradicts the spirit of the forum" or anything close to that. I do support a "family friendly atmosphere". I said "restricting/controlling an individuals right for the sake of the "overall good" is generally not a good way to do business. It contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum". Essentially I believe that the policy is inconsistent with the core values of the forum, not that the message or goal of a family friendly environment is bad.

Are you refering to "us" boycotting people? If so, that was already addressed in a earlier post. We WILL fight for their (the boycottees) rights if someone trys to restrict them. BUT I personally don't want people with a anti-gun attitude (which they have a right to have) to get my money, and this topic area is for the discussion of this attitude, and informing each other of these buinesses. Do we make a difference... probably not much of one. But I feel better about myself.

Digigdawg wrote:Secondly, I am not advocating or promoting, cursing, vulgarity or attacks on individuals. If that is what you got out of the message I apologize as that is not the intention. Please point out specific references to such and I will edit them. On that note, do not confuse "free speech" with cursing,vulgarity or attacks. The problem is that taste is very subjective. What may offend some does not offend others.

That is correct. The taste is very very subjective. The folks that make the rules drew the line. We folks are allowed to cross that line if we so wish... and get thrown out on our hind ends. I don't think the parent example was so bad... And I like the way this place is run...

Digigdawg wrote:You are most likely right that this forum is not a business. I was simply trying to compare the idea of an entity providing a service to a clientele. With the entity being the forum and the clientele being us, the members. I should have included individuals as well. With this being said, the main gist of the argument still applies.

I disagree with your analogy of the forum being our parents? I agree it is essential that a parent may discipline their children in most anyway they deem fit to maintain order. Though the point you make is a good one, it simply does not apply this conversation or to the forum. Though it is the forum's goal to maintain good order, In no way is like our parents, and in no way are we like it's children.


Yes it is! Take it in the proper context. "They", Thomas and friends, own and maintain this space. They put up the money and time. Like your dad did. He says, don't swear, and be home by 11:00. And you did that, or were punished. Same thing here, execpt the 11:00 bit... DUH!


Digigdawg wrote:The whole point of this was to demonstrate a potential inconsistency in our forum. I am not complaining or trying to have the rules or format of the forum changed, simply playing devil's advocate. A healthy discussion never hurt anyone.

I agree with you JoeSparky 100%. The point I am trying to make is that we tolerate some individual's/businesses restrictions of rights while admonishing others(boycott list) for essentially doing the same thing. It seems a little contradictory to me.

We chose our battles. Can't take on all of them. So, in the attitude of the subject of this forum, we have chosen anti-gun folk, for the most part. I'd make a fuss if the "goverment" were to tell them they have no rights to set rules on their property. That'd be super wrong. But I will make a fuss about "individuals" making stupid rules...
I feel like I'm repeating myself...
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Snowman » Sun 18 Sep 2011 10:52 am

Daeyel wrote: The debate is lively (albeit one sided) and the members educated and motivated to have the right answers. I really would welcome a debate with Bradyites, but whenever we go to their forums to try, we get labelled trolls and banned. They never come here.

One did look promising for a while, but then I think he felt a little piled on to...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11497&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=an+honest+question
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby zinon » Sun 18 Sep 2011 11:09 am

Digigdawg wrote:So I guess that I am a little confused on why it is so inappropriate for a business to implement such restrictive/controlling (cannot think of the word) policy in relation to guns when this very forum is practicing similar policies in regards to free speech
....
I just do not see how we can tolerate one restriction of our rights while fighting so hard to protect another.


I have always held that free speech means the free expression of ideas. As such I would argue that the 13 rules of this forum cultivate free speech rather than restrict it.

I never have a conversation stay on topic; tangents are a way of life to me, it's how I was raised. Even so, I do not find the no hijacking rule (#9) to restrict my freedom of speech. With days or weeks (sometimes months) between posts a thread would become a tangled nightmare if there weren't a rule to keep us on topic.

Forums are a place for discussion, for the exchange of ideas. A place for public debate. But in order to debate there needs to be rules. Rules should not be thought of as restrictions. Most rules are permissive, even ones that say "You can not..."

I know some people who were raised that swearing is a part of speech (noun, pronoun, adverb, adjective, curse, etc). And it can be very difficult to constrain one's self while speaking. But this is a written forum, so controlling one's language here is much simpler. Note, I did not say censor. There is a reason profanity is call course language. A little polish won't hurt, and can even help, a post.

While most adults have no difficultly understanding the point and disregarding the words. There are always those who can not separate an idea from the words used. To be as inclusive as possible this forum has declared that vulgarity has no place in discourse.

Digigdawg wrote:Why not have the ability for members to rate/give feedback on posts/individuals so we can police ourselves. Maybe have a rating for content and vulgarity pertaining to what the forum defines as "family friendly". This way the members of the forum can see if an individual poster uses less than "family friendly" tendencies and have the membership decide for ourselves if we wish to view that particular individual's posts.


This would have the effect of splintering this forum in to dozens of pieces. None of which would be large enough to sustain any measure of public debate.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby Snurd » Sun 18 Sep 2011 11:16 am

I guess that I need to point out a few things to you again, maybe in a slightly different way. You CANNOT have a family friendly forum, and a free speech forum in one. You can have one or the other, not both. You specifically said regarding a family friendly atmosphere, " I am all for that and support whole-heartedly". That is what you said, word for word. And I made that clear in my first post above. I even quoted it.

Here is where you are missing your own point. Yes, you did say, "Restricting/controlling an individuals right for the sake of the 'overall good' is generally not a good way to do business, it contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum", and not "having a family friendly forum contradicts....." well, you get the point. I hope. Here is where you misunderstand. As I have stated twice now, which I hope you have read, is that you cannot have a family friendly forum and also a free speech forum. SO, here we go. You stating that you "whole-heartedly" support a family friendly forum and then go on to say that restricting free speech is not a good way to do business and contradicts the very essence/spirit of the forum, is in fact a contradiction to itself. So, what you are essentially saying, even though you didn't actually type it, is that you support a family friendly forum 100%, but having a family friendly forum contradicts the essence/spirit of the forum. Having a family friendly forum makes it so you can't say something however you want. You must tone down language, crudeness, and whatever else you want to say to be part of that family friendly goodness.

You say that you are not advocating or promoting cursing, vulgarity, or attacks on individuals. I ask, how are you not? That is the substance that is restricted on this site. And you "playing devils advocate" are asking why we can't have free speech. The only speech that isn't allowed here is vulgarity, cursing, attacks on individuals and other such worthless things. You say that I am confusing "free speech" with cursing, vulgarity or attacks. That language is part of free speech. The only thing that you an be referring to when you say that the forum is restricting free speech is that sort of language because it is what is not allowed. You say that ,"What may offend some does not offend others". I will keep on the swearing bit just to make it easier to understand. No matter who you are, swearing is swearing. Some words may offend one person while those same words will not offend another. It doesn't matter what letter the swear word starts with, it is still swearing. Swearing is not allowed here. There are other things that offend some, and not others. This is why we have mods. And they will use this if something is offensive: :mod: They will usually give a brief description of why they got rid of the post.

Whether you agree with my analogy of the parents/children doesn't matter, because that still applies. If you would like to change the children to adults, and change the parents to the owner of a home, that is fine. It still works. As I stated in my first post, if someone were to come into my home (especially if that person knew the rules, whatever they may be) and broke them, then they would get the boot. It is the same here. This is not your (or my) house. The person(s) who built this forum owns it, and have made rules that we need to follow. We are under their roof. Their house, their rules.

You say that you agree with JoeSparky 100%, then point out that restricting individuals/businesses rights is contradictory. ********Disclaimer: I took out a few words from what you said so it would be shorter, yet it means the same thing********
You either didn't read what JoeSparky said, or you completely forgot about it as soon as you started the next sentence. You can't have it both ways. Either you agree 100% with what he said, or you think the rules of the forum are contradictory to themselves. Go back and read what he said. It makes perfect sense.

Either you are for a family friendly forum, or you aren't You are welcome to stay and abide by the rules, or you are free to go elsewhere.
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby lmj301 » Sun 18 Sep 2011 11:24 am

My only issues with the "family friendly" posting rules is that it also means that we cannot correctly (at times) quote government employees. These are the people that are either voted in to office by us or are appointed by those that are. I also think that, with a warning, we should be able to link to (as an example) police videos that have swearing. I do believe that the policy goes too far to the point that we shelter ourselves to what can really happen.

this subject in an of itself has been beaten to death in the past. It is always shot down, just as you are being shot down now. The members here will invite you to visit other sites that have these things.

:roll:
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby My Trigger Guard » Sun 18 Sep 2011 11:58 am

I guess I am completly failing to see the point of your arguement. I also do not understand what I am going to get out of it by seeing it through, except maybe for you I guess which has it rewards. I guess what your arguing is that we are all about freedom but your saying the the policies here some how hinder them and that are activities make us hypocrites? Which just doesnt even hold water, which is why I guess I find arguing about it a waste of time.

But okay lets just make the argument so we can resolve this line of thought maybe even change the way you approach it. This forum is all about maximum freedom!!!!! which translates into maximum rights which also means maximum choices which is the essence of freedom. I have a choice. These choices come about from the freedom of speech you could say. Your looking at it backwards like we are imposing on someone elses rights, when in truth they are imposing on our rights.

No ones choices or freedom of speech is hindered here by any of our activites. The forum is informative and lets you decide. Businesss have the right to run there business any way they like within the law, be it a free or profit business. Customer have the right to be informed about the company and choose who gets there business. If a business chooses to restrict someones rights, its there perogitive. They do have the right to do so, but we have the right to choose not to use there business. This forum does not require anyone to boycott a business, if anything the list is of business's that have chosen to "boycott us". Not us boycotting them. If anyones rights have been hindered in any way its the customers of these business's that loose there rights by doing business with them. So again if anything our rights have been imposed by these companies, not the other way around. By doing so they have chosen not to take my business, I have chosen not to loose my rights. If there is enough support for this companies policies then it will be sucessfull and have a following and continue on rightfully so. I do not wish to take away there rights in any way shape or form. I respect that they can choose to do so, as long as they dont force an imposition on my rights. And they are not becuase I can choose to do business with them or not. However I would think it very distastefull to hinder the rights of your customers. The rights are given from god, why would a company feel the need to take that a way I have no idea.

I do business with companies all the time that hinder my rights, I do not like to but sometimes I choose to do so out of neccessity or lack of choices or laziness. When I can I take my business elsewhere.

We have also brought up several times a request for a positive list for business's that do not hinder our rights. A pro list of sorts of business that choose not to trample its customers.

Now to our forum rules, again I do not get it becuase there is no restrictions on any of my freedoms here. You do not need to attack someone or use vulgarity or go R+ Rating to utilize freedom of speech. Again if you must then you dont have an arguement to begin with. They are not stopping you from saying what you want right here. You can always again take your business elsewhere and spam whatever you like on blogs or other forums elsewhere. If there is any substance to it, it could just as easily be taken on here.

So again I just dont get your arguement? am I missing something or are we just having a conversation for the sake of having a conversation? Or do your opionons of the Rights given by god difer? Do you believe are rights are derived from man and goverment so another man should be able to hinder your rights? Who is really doing the imposing then eh?
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Re: Lets be Fair...

Postby My Trigger Guard » Sun 18 Sep 2011 12:05 pm

lmj301 wrote:My only issues with the "family friendly" posting rules is that it also means that we cannot correctly (at times) quote government employees. These are the people that are either voted in to office by us or are appointed by those that are. I also think that, with a warning, we should be able to link to (as an example) police videos that have swearing. I do believe that the policy goes too far to the point that we shelter ourselves to what can really happen.

this subject in an of itself has been beaten to death in the past. It is always shot down, just as you are being shot down now. The members here will invite you to visit other sites that have these things.

:roll:


Sorry to add to this but its fairly simple. Why do you need to directly quote an official if he is using profanity? Okay so people need to now hes not a very good representitive and you think we should elect a different official next time around. You can still rely the substance of what he said and could always comment on the demeanor in which it was deliever and how you feel about it.

So again I just dont get what is being sheltered or freedom of speech hindered? So you have to be a bit more creative and inteligent in about how you approach it. Any moron can swear, rant, rave or act like an idiot. Doesnt make him any more correct or inteligent. I honestly prefer the idea that we hold ourselves to higher standards then others might, it speaks to character.
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