New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

We will try to post current legislative bills that relate to Gun Control issues in this Forum. This includes bills in the Utah Legislature and U.S. Congress.

Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby dewittdj » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:05 pm

Uinta Firearms wrote:I worry that it'll cause us to lose some states, like Michigan, Colorado, and Pennsylvania, in regards to reciprocity. However, I'm unequivocally in favor of constitutional carry.

My first concern is my right as a Utah resident, carrying in Utah, other states be what they may. Reciprocity comes and goes without much logic behind it. I'm in favor of Constitutional Carry.
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby dewittdj » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:06 pm

bagpiper wrote:A bill and sponsor are in the works.
But now is a great time to congratulate that legislative candidate you helped win his race and put a bug in his ear about how it is time to take the next step on more fully respecting RsKBA.
Charles

:agree: Keep them reminded of the reason(s) that you voted for them!!!
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby dewittdj » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:14 pm

J_dazzle23 wrote:While I agree that you should take upon yourself the responsibility of being proficient with the battery of arms you choose to carry, I simply do not believe you can legislate personal responsibility. Every single accident that could be had with a firearm(that I can think of) already is illegal. For example the lady that killed a toilet in a school (LOL).

I get what you are saying, and in theory I agree with everyone being proficient with their firearm, but I know that there is no way to enforce this without infringing on personal rights. (That I can think of, anyway)

I guess what I am getting likely puts us in the same boat. In theory, it would be nice, but i don't trust anyone, especially not the government to regulate this.

Right now, there are people who teach that western medicine is completely bunk, and have HUGE followings. This results in people dying from diseases by the thousands that they wouldn't have died from. This has a huge impact on our society. For the greater good, we could make them take some immunology and physiology classes before they get to spout their nonsense, but that would a violation of rights. I view this no differently, honestly.

Great in theory, but I just don't think you can legislate common sense.

:agree:
The quandary is the number or irresponsible that for lack of a single incident involving a firearm are now free to wander aimlessly will stroking the "Power" in their pocket, tucked in their belt, or stuffed in their lunchbox. I fear that there may be an incident or two that will raise this issue, if passed, back into the public scrutiny, where the legislative arm may swing back in the wrong direction and not stop where it was before.
:disgusted:
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby dewittdj » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:16 pm

JoeSparky wrote:Quychang, et.al.
Education in this country is NOT mandatory! Attendance Is!

Imagine if it was... well, there goes all of those "trophies for just competing" and those diplomas for just attending...
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby Uinta Firearms » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:22 pm

dewittdj wrote:
Uinta Firearms wrote:I worry that it'll cause us to lose some states, like Michigan, Colorado, and Pennsylvania, in regards to reciprocity. However, I'm unequivocally in favor of constitutional carry.

My first concern is my right as a Utah resident, carrying in Utah, other states be what they may. Reciprocity comes and goes without much logic behind it. I'm in favor of Constitutional Carry.

I'm a tax paying Utah resident who hasn't occupied a home in Utah since 2009. Reciprocity is a huge deal for me. I was in Virginia for 3 years. I was good there. I'm currently living in Chicagoland. It's a no go. Next stop appears to be Philadelphia. As a resident I'm good there.

How do I get to do this? First, I served in the Marines. Now, I serve as a Navy spouse.
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby quychang » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:29 pm

dewittdj wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:Quychang, et.al.
Education in this country is NOT mandatory! Attendance Is!

Imagine if it was... well, there goes all of those "trophies for just competing" and those diplomas for just attending...


I won't argue the point, except to say that if you do attend, enough to pass, you're bound to absorb at least a little bit. If only by osmosis, or sleep learning by your subconscious mind. Heck I graduated with better than a 3.0 and carried a 4.0 my senior year just to prove I could have done so the rest of the time had I cared enough to try. And while it does surprise me sometimes how much I remember after so many years, I can still honestly say most of what I know comes from independent study as an adult.

Mel
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby J_dazzle23 » Sun 30 Nov 2014 7:48 pm

dewittdj wrote:
J_dazzle23 wrote:While I agree that you should take upon yourself the responsibility of being proficient with the battery of arms you choose to carry, I simply do not believe you can legislate personal responsibility. Every single accident that could be had with a firearm(that I can think of) already is illegal. For example the lady that killed a toilet in a school (LOL).

I get what you are saying, and in theory I agree with everyone being proficient with their firearm, but I know that there is no way to enforce this without infringing on personal rights. (That I can think of, anyway)

I guess what I am getting likely puts us in the same boat. In theory, it would be nice, but i don't trust anyone, especially not the government to regulate this.

Right now, there are people who teach that western medicine is completely bunk, and have HUGE followings. This results in people dying from diseases by the thousands that they wouldn't have died from. This has a huge impact on our society. For the greater good, we could make them take some immunology and physiology classes before they get to spout their nonsense, but that would a violation of rights. I view this no differently, honestly.

Great in theory, but I just don't think you can legislate common sense.

:agree:
The quandary is the number or irresponsible that for lack of a single incident involving a firearm are now free to wander aimlessly will stroking the "Power" in their pocket, tucked in their belt, or stuffed in their lunchbox. I fear that there may be an incident or two that will raise this issue, if passed, back into the public scrutiny, where the legislative arm may swing back in the wrong direction and not stop where it was before.
:disgusted:

I agree, that is a realistic and legitimate concern.
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby bagpiper » Sun 30 Nov 2014 9:59 pm

quychang wrote:Oh, but education is mandatory in our country. You can't force people to remember or use what they've learned however. And while not mandatory, there are usually sufficient opportunities to learn about the candidates and issues prior to an election. Those being an example of not mandatory training, not being taken advantage of

.....


In short, I think it's a healthy discussion for us to have, here among us. When it comes to public forums I'll stand proudly along side you and with no reservations support constitutional carry, as well as condemn all forms of government infringement upon our constitutional rights.



I've not added anything to this thread for several days for lack of anything worthwhile to add, even as I've greatly enjoyed reading and pondering what others have written. I've though seriously about what has been written. I've considered on how we might encourage folks to get trained but without infringing their enumerated, constitutional and natural/God-given rights. I've thought about the Viper example and wondered about some kind of improved liability protection if someone can show training.

But I think in this post Mel reminds me of something I've forgotten. We the people have the right to own and carry firearms. The federal government has the delegated constitutional authority and responsibility to prescribe the appropriate training for the militia. Most (all?) States including Utah have constitutional or at least statutory authority and responsibility to provide education to all youngsters in the borders.

The answer to the problem escaped me because of my natural conservative/libertarian desire for limited government. I forgot that there are some things that are the proper purview of government. And basic firearms safety, usage, and I'd say legal training are clearly in that group of things specifically delegated to government right along with national defense, honest money and weights and measures, and guaranteeing every State a republican form of government and every citizen his rights under the constitution.

Firearms training needs to be as common in public/government schools as math (hopefully a better curriculum that often, currently used for math), science, history, and english.

I suppose if someone wishes to opt out their children for sincere religious objections or some disability, that would have to be permitted. But otherwise, a regular and mandatory part of getting a diploma just like PE, learning about evolution and cosmology, and demonstrating some minimal proficiency with arithmetic and basic algebra.

We have the right to own and carry firearms, and we've delegated to government the responsibility to make sure that the general public (the militia) has some basic training in firearms usage and safety. We just need to demand that government do its job properly just as some had to demand it provide proper education to racial minorities.

My thanks, Mel, for reminding me of this.

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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby JoeSparky » Sun 30 Nov 2014 11:08 pm

dewittdj wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:Quychang, et.al.
Education in this country is NOT mandatory! Attendance Is!

Imagine if it was... well, there goes all of those "trophies for just competing" and those diplomas for just attending...

Nothing in the law requiring graduation either.... just to attend until a specific age or parental consent allowing one to not attend anymore.
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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby quychang » Mon 01 Dec 2014 1:21 am

JoeSparky wrote:Nothing in the law requiring graduation either.... just to attend until a specific age or parental consent allowing one to not attend anymore.


You're right Joe, nothing requires graduating, or to put a fine point on it, education. The law does make it mandatory for that education to be made available to all. We can debate the quality of the curriculum or proof of actually assimilating that education in another thread. I have reservations on both issues, but, I agree with Charles that if we're going to require actual training for the militia, school would be the natural place to put it. And it would be the one place where attendance could be mandatory. Again, if a child has the mindset that you can make me be here, but you can't make me learn, then that training is not going to be effective. But honestly that's a smaller percentage of students than you give credit for. Again, I'll admit it's both a vocal, and disruptive group that causes headaches for teachers, and no doubt lowers the overall education received by all students. But hey, even the gang bangers and wanna bees might show interest in gun related training. For the wrong reasons perhaps, but still. If you can grab their interest anywhere in the educational process, some of that will carry over to other subjects.

They already allow ROTC to substituted for the PE requirement. And at least army ROTC students receive gun related training. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to allow advanced gun related training to substitute for PE. Particularly if the school has a shooting range on campus. It's been many years since I attended but at the time, both Ben Lomand High and Ogden High had ROTC shooting ranges, and teams that participated in shooting matches between the local ROTC departments. All cadets had to show at least basic proficiency with a rifle, in multiple shooting stances. We officers often took advantage of the range before or after school, sometimes even during class time, to get in an hour of range time. So even in this politically correct era, the idea isn't so far fetched.

I, for one, would love to see the idea explored and improved upon. It certainly beats any other ideas i've seen advanced.

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Re: New Utah Constitutional Carry Bill

Postby Sam Fidler » Mon 01 Dec 2014 9:06 am

dewittdj wrote:I fear that there may be an incident or two that will raise this issue, if passed, back into the public scrutiny, where the legislative arm may swing back in the wrong direction and not stop where it was before.
:disgusted:

With that line of thinking, I would never get out of bed in the morning. Should we avoid trying because someone might fail? Do we not exercise our rights because others may abuse theirs? If we don't take advantage of the political swing toward individual liberty whenever available then we must accept the never ending assault on our freedoms as a natural end to a once great nation.

I will fight for every inch of freedom we can reclaim and will stand firmly on that ground and fight to maintain it. To not fight for freedom today because we may lose ground tomorrow is not a concept I accept in myself and, frankly, one I despise in others.
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