Constitutional Carry (again)

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Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby manithree » Mon 03 Oct 2016 8:39 am

http://fox13now.com/2016/09/30/utah-lawmaker-opens-constitutional-carry-bill/
SALT LAKE CITY — A state lawmaker is defending his decision to open a so-called “constitutional carry” bill in the Utah State Legislature.

Rep. Lee Perry, R-Perry, said in a statement that he is doing it at the request of constituents who support the Second Amendment. Perry, whose day job is a Utah Highway Patrol trooper, insisted that he is not running the bill on behalf of law enforcement (which has raised concerns about such bills in the past).

“I recently opened a bill file that would allow law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed gun without a permit and not be considered a criminal action. I’m sponsoring this legislation because I have constituents that believe this is a Second Amendment right. Eleven other states have passed similar laws including Wyoming, Idaho and Arizona,” Perry said in his statement.


Here's hoping Herbert won't try to block this one.

ETA: Here's the 2017 bill:

http://le.utah.gov/~2017/bills/static/HB0112.html
Last edited by manithree on Sun 08 Jan 2017 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby D-FIN » Mon 03 Oct 2016 11:45 am

He will they just need to shove it down his throat and make him choke on it by overturning his veto.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby gravedancer » Mon 03 Oct 2016 10:05 pm

manithree wrote:http://fox13now.com/2016/09/30/utah-lawmaker-opens-constitutional-carry-bill/
SALT LAKE CITY — A state lawmaker is defending his decision to open a so-called “constitutional carry” bill in the Utah State Legislature.

Rep. Lee Perry, R-Perry, said in a statement that he is doing it at the request of constituents who support the Second Amendment. Perry, whose day job is a Utah Highway Patrol trooper, insisted that he is not running the bill on behalf of law enforcement (which has raised concerns about such bills in the past).

“I recently opened a bill file that would allow law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed gun without a permit and not be considered a criminal action. I’m sponsoring this legislation because I have constituents that believe this is a Second Amendment right. Eleven other states have passed similar laws including Wyoming, Idaho and Arizona,” Perry said in his statement.


Here's hoping Herbert won't try to block this one.


He veto'd it once, and suffered no real harm career wise from doing so. What incentive would he have to let it pass this time, assuming the legislature manages to send it his way ?
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby manithree » Tue 04 Oct 2016 6:54 am

gravedancer wrote:He veto'd it once, and suffered no real harm career wise from doing so. What incentive would he have to let it pass this time, assuming the legislature manages to send it his way ?


Like I said before, JJ's challenge finally got him to change his mind on common core. Constitutional carry was a smaller issue, but one that Mr. Johnson touted. It would appear that losing at the convention at least made him think for a minute.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby bagpiper » Tue 04 Oct 2016 11:52 am

In addition to the convention loss, there is also the issue of additional States passing Constitution Carry in the last two years.

Ten or so years ago when Rep. Thompson first introduced Constitutional carry we'd have been the first State in the union after Vermont to do it. It would have been ground breaking. To do so after Alaska would have made us the first urbanized State to do so. To do so after Arizona would have still had Utah on the pioneering edge.

But with 11 or 12 States now offering some form of permit-free carry, and with several States moving to Constitutional Carry since the veto two years ago, we're now talking something that starts to look mainstream rather than radical.

Utah is a conservative society in the true meaning of conservative: we are resistant to radical changes. We have lead out on several important aspects of RKBA the last 20 years. Certain other aspects will be easier for us as we follow someone else's lead.

The key is the legislature. Let your legislators know this is important to you. There will be plenty of folks calling them claiming "I own guns, I'm an NRA member, I have a permit and there is no need to make this change." Make sure your voice is heard politely, but firmly.

This is not a major change to Utah law. This doesn't allow people without permits to carry into schools. We've spent 20+ years proving that law-abiding citizens do not create a hazard when they carry guns in public. The 2nd amendment is not a 2nd-class right and we shouldn't need a permit just to put a coat over our holstered gun as we go to the range.

There are still a few weeks left to volunteer a little time to help legislative candidates with their re-election. A couple of hours on a Saturday morning walking a neighborhood for an imperfect, but decent, legislative candidate makes your views that much more important to him come February.

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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby ingfam03 » Tue 04 Oct 2016 3:49 pm

Can someone tell me if this change to the law would change the utah legally loaded part of the law?
If not, I don't believe this is really consitutional carry. Or am I wrong? The statement that said " just because it gets covered with a jacket should not make someone a criminal" makes me wonder. Just what it will be. I looked yesterday but couldn't find the bill.

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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby DaKnife » Wed 05 Oct 2016 2:33 am

The bill has not been formally published, it's still in a protected status so the text is not widely available. So exactly what it contains is yet unknown and even then preliminary text is often changed during the legislative process. At this point I would expect it to stick to the "Utah Unloaded" rule just to make it easier to pass.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby ingfam03 » Wed 05 Oct 2016 3:35 am

Thanks Daknife.
That's kind of what I thought.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby UtahRSO » Wed 19 Oct 2016 11:41 pm

Some of our good friends who are teachers carry concealed in their classrooms. How would constitutional carry affect them (if they chose not to renew their CFP's). I thought Federal law banning firearms in schools was only overridden if a person had a concealed carry permit. Am I wrong?
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby Cinhil » Thu 20 Oct 2016 12:21 am

UtahRSO wrote:Some of our good friends who are teachers carry concealed in their classrooms. How would constitutional carry affect them (if they chose not to renew their CFP's). I thought Federal law banning firearms in schools was only overridden if a person had a concealed carry permit. Am I wrong?


If I remember correctly the Federal law allows provisions to obey state law which is why ccw holders are able to carry on school grounds - because state law permits this. If I a incorrect someone correct me. IANAL
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby DaKnife » Thu 20 Oct 2016 5:17 am

As it currently stands they should still get and maintain their permits. Some states have tried to write blanket permissions into their laws but that has not been tested in regards to the GFSZ act requiring specific permission. The Feds may accept it, or they may not, and if not then the courts may or may not.

If not it's a felony and you lose your right to keep and bear arms for good. Thus it behooves anyone wanting to carry into a school in a constitutional carry state to have a permit.

I also am not a Lawyer, but find this one aspect of the Const carry movement that is very concerning. We simply don't know if the feds will accept a state const carry law as permission to enter a GFSZ with a gun.

The federal law requires the individual to have permission from the state, they accept carry permits as such permission. Will they accept a const carry law as a blanket permission?
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby manithree » Thu 20 Oct 2016 10:15 am

DaKnife wrote:I also am not a Lawyer, but find this one aspect of the Const carry movement that is very concerning. We simply don't know if the feds will accept a state const carry law as permission to enter a GFSZ with a gun.


I don't really see anything to be concerned about. We haven't even seen the latest bill yet. But since it's been vetoed twice, I suspect it will be an incremental step in the right direction, not a daring middle finger to fedzilla.

If the alleged bill modifies the Utah GFSZ law, or the section that exempts CFP holders from it, then we'll know it intends blanket permission. If not, it's permits as usual. Based on my memory of the previous bills and the current (and very likely next) governor, the latter seems much more likely.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby althor » Thu 20 Oct 2016 10:32 am

Cinhil wrote:
UtahRSO wrote:Some of our good friends who are teachers carry concealed in their classrooms. How would constitutional carry affect them (if they chose not to renew their CFP's). I thought Federal law banning firearms in schools was only overridden if a person had a concealed carry permit. Am I wrong?


If I remember correctly the Federal law allows provisions to obey state law which is why ccw holders are able to carry on school grounds - because state law permits this. If I a incorrect someone correct me. IANAL


I think it is more than obey state law. The exemption states

18USC922(q)(2)(B)(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;


To me that means you need an actual license, and that before you receive it the state must verify that you qualify. You won't find me offering to be a test case.
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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby bagpiper » Thu 20 Oct 2016 11:44 am

UtahRSO wrote:Some of our good friends who are teachers carry concealed in their classrooms. How would constitutional carry affect them (if they chose not to renew their CFP's). I thought Federal law banning firearms in schools was only overridden if a person had a concealed carry permit. Am I wrong?


This bill will (most likely) have no effect on teachers or anyone else who carries in a school. They will still need to maintain a Utah permit.

Prior bills to allow permit free or constitutional carry have not altered the permit system in Utah. They have just made the permit optional in places other than school zones. I expect this bill will do likewise. But I haven't seen the text yet and so can't say for sure.

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Re: Constitutional Carry (again)

Postby D-FIN » Thu 20 Oct 2016 1:02 pm

bagpiper wrote:
UtahRSO wrote:Some of our good friends who are teachers carry concealed in their classrooms. How would constitutional carry affect them (if they chose not to renew their CFP's). I thought Federal law banning firearms in schools was only overridden if a person had a concealed carry permit. Am I wrong?


This bill will (most likely) have no effect on teachers or anyone else who carries in a school. They will still need to maintain a Utah permit.

Prior bills to allow permit free or constitutional carry have not altered the permit system in Utah. They have just made the permit optional in places other than school zones. I expect this bill will do likewise. But I haven't seen the text yet and so can't say for sure.

Charles



^^^^What he said...... There will still be a Utah permit and will still be required for school carry and depending on the average maybe even for loaded carry (I'd love to see Utah unloaded go bye as it is a joke). It really would simply let those who already open carry without a permit throw on a jacket without becoming a felon. It really would not affect much of anything else except Utah's standing as as a FREE state.
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