2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

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2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby bagpiper » Thu 26 Jan 2017 6:03 pm

Rep Karianne LIsonbee and Sen. Todd Weiler have sponsored HB198, Concealed Carry Amendments, which we will know as "Concealed Carry Permits for 18 to 21 year olds." The bill's text and status can be quickly access at http://le.utah.gov/~2017/bills/static/HB0198.html .

This bill makes a permit to carry a concealed (and/or loaded) firearm available to those aged 18 to 21 on a nearly identical basis as is available to persons 21 years and older. In order to avoid risking loss of recognition of our current carry permit, the permit for 18 to 21 year olds is a different permit, known as a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm. West Virginia did this last year and had zero effect on recognition of their regular permit. They actually ended up getting several States to recognize their provisional permit.

Other States will be free to recognize or not recognize our provisional permit entirely independently of whether they choose to recognize our regular permit. The provisional permit expires on the holder's 21st birthday when he is eligible for a regular permit. (There may need to be a little cleanup here later to make sure nobody with a provisional permit is left without the ability to legally carry while their regular permit is issued.)

The one difference between the Provisional and regular permit is that those with a Provisional permit cannot legally carry onto the grounds of nor into buildings of any K-12 school. This is obviously intended to avoid 18 year old high school seniors from carrying a gun to high school. There is no 1000' exclusion rule. I do not know yet how this will interplay with the federal GFSZ law.

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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby Snurd » Thu 26 Jan 2017 6:49 pm

I would say it's about time that this has been brought up. 18 year old people can join the military and carry guns protecting their country, but concealing is illegal? Lame. I hope they don't have to worry about the 1000 foot rule if it passes.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby JoeSparky » Thu 26 Jan 2017 11:56 pm

By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby Luv10mm » Fri 27 Jan 2017 8:58 am

JoeSparky wrote:By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!


How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby bagpiper » Fri 27 Jan 2017 10:59 am

JoeSparky wrote:By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!


As I posted, the reason for having a separate permit is to avoid affecting recognition of the existing Utah permit. Near as I can tell there are 30 States that recognize a Maine resident permit, compared to 36 that recognize a Utah resident permit.

And for now, I think we do have to deal with concerns about 18 year old high school seniors carrying guns into class if they can get a permit to carry.

The proposed, Provisional Permit to Carry addresses both of those concerns in a very clean fashion, having zero affect on the existing Utah permit.

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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby tapehoser » Fri 27 Jan 2017 4:08 pm

I'm all for this. Having a son who is 20, he'd love to carry and has taken his concealed course, but must wait until the 21st birthday.

Plenty of responsible 18-20 year olds in the world who I'd trust to carry every day. Then again, there are plenty that I wouldn't want touching a firearm for their stupidity as well.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby jfwright1955 » Fri 27 Jan 2017 4:37 pm

After watching some 18-21 years olds at the range, and certainly at Front Sight, the one's I've seen have demonstrated more common sense than some of the older counterparts. I recognize that's not going to be true in all cases, and isn't just limited to someone in that age group either. However, there does tend to be plenty of examples of some 18-21 year olds who just don't seem to have a lick of common sense and I'd imagine that may also hold true of being entrusted with a firearm. But, again, the same can be said of older carriers.

So, I'm torn. I guess in a roundabout way, though, I'm saying I'm supportive of provisional carry permits for 18-21 year olds with some underlying reservations, if that makes sense.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby JoeSparky » Fri 27 Jan 2017 7:18 pm

Luv10mm wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!


How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?


Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby gravedancer » Fri 27 Jan 2017 8:42 pm

JoeSparky wrote:
Luv10mm wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!


How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?


Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?


Maybe its intended that the "provisional" permit can be renewed (and presumably converted to a normal permit) as the user approaches 21. That would close the apparent oversight of having them be without a permit for a couple of months during the transition.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby JoeSparky » Fri 27 Jan 2017 11:51 pm

Only language I see regarding "renewing" either exempt spouse of serviceman or serviceperson themselves or the fee to renew.... No language provided for conversion from "provisional" to regular. IF this was the intended desire--- then the bill needs to be cleaned up, appropriate text added, and superfluous language removed. Seems like too much extra that is not needed in present form.

Per this line:
(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm for
40 lawful self-defense to an applicant who is 18 years of age, but is no older than 20 years of age,....


It seems anyone OVER 20 (age 20+ 1 day or more ) but under 21 cannot be issued a provisional permit yet later in the bill the provisional permit expires on the 21st birthday of the holder..

Bagpiper, you sound as if you've had special knowledge and discussion with those proposing/submitting this bill.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby gravedancer » Sat 28 Jan 2017 12:37 pm

JoeSparky wrote:Only language I see regarding "renewing" either exempt spouse of serviceman or serviceperson themselves or the fee to renew.... No language provided for conversion from "provisional" to regular. IF this was the intended desire--- then the bill needs to be cleaned up, appropriate text added, and superfluous language removed. Seems like too much extra that is not needed in present form.

Per this line:
(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm for
40 lawful self-defense to an applicant who is 18 years of age, but is no older than 20 years of age,....


It seems anyone OVER 20 (age 20+ 1 day or more ) but under 21 cannot be issued a provisional permit yet later in the bill the provisional permit expires on the 21st birthday of the holder..

Bagpiper, you sound as if you've had special knowledge and discussion with those proposing/submitting this bill.



Theres no legal distinction between 20 years old and x days, and 20 years. Legally speaking, you are either 20 years old, or 21. Until you reach 21, you arent considered over 20.
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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby bagpiper » Mon 30 Jan 2017 9:49 am

JoeSparky wrote:Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?


Always good to be cautious.

The intent of the Provisional Permit is to be able to treat 18-21 year olds differently than those over 21 without ever touching the part of the code dealing with the regular permits. Ideally, in my mind, the limitation on carrying into K-12 schools would only apply to those who have not yet graduated from high school. But I think it not entirely unreasonable to apply this limitation to everyone younger than 21. Such a limitation will make passage easier to obtain. With the separate, Provisional Permit for those younger than 21, any changes made in the future can be made without any need to touch the language dealing with regular permits. This is a safety mechanism, in addition to providing some protection against losing recognition of our regular permit that might be at risk if we just dropped the minimum age to 18.

I do not see any renewal language in the bill. I do see a provision for a replacement permit. On what lines of the bill do you read renewal language?

I have had discussions with both the bill sponsor and the temporary NRA rep for Utah this year. He is from West Virginia where they passed a very similar bill recently. They also got permit-free (constitutional) carry via a veto over-ride, this last year.

The intent here is good. We do always have to watch for unwanted gotchas in the drafting process.

Thanks for keeping a close eye on it.

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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby JoeSparky » Mon 30 Jan 2017 9:54 am

No renewal language as such just a fee for renewal on line 98. Had me scratching my head.

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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby JoeSparky » Mon 30 Jan 2017 10:14 am

Question for Bagpiper and bill writers / sponsors. Could a conversion to normal permit be added by setting up an application and fee to be paid 3 months prior to turning 21 so a more seamless process for those with provisional to regular permits plans?
They already have the training and background checks done for the provisional permit. And then the current "renewal fee" on the proposed bill would make sense.

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Re: 2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

Postby bagpiper » Mon 30 Jan 2017 1:29 pm

JoeSparky wrote:No renewal language as such just a fee for renewal on line 98. Had me scratching my head.


Line 98 is existing law, dealing with the regular permit. The only changes to this section of code is to add some references to the new provisional permit.

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