Lee Kay Center

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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby Ruger Collector » Thu 30 Apr 2009 3:11 pm

rufus wrote: Now folks, this page WAS written by a lawyer.


Has an exception to 76-10-500(2) for LKC been written by the legislature?

rufus wrote:On a much happier note, the official policy concerning suppressed weapons has finally changed to what it should have been all along. Make sure you bring your paperwork, be prepared to show it and have fun. Common sense has prevailed.


That is great news. Will photo copies be acceptable? Most people will only carry copies, and keep the original paperwork in a very safe place.
If we fail to accomplish firearm safety by education, we increase the risk of draconian legislation.

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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby divegeek » Thu 30 Apr 2009 3:26 pm

rufus wrote:It lists the normal common sense things you would expect as well as an agreement that you will not open carry while on the range. It's that simple. If you cannot comply with the agreement you have signed, you lose your shooting privileges. Remember, you have agreed in writing not to open carry.

There is a valid question as to whether or not the range can legally make that restriction. Common sense or not, it sounds like an "ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms", and only the state legislature can make those, per 76-10-500. Unless there's some other statute that grants ranges permission to regulate carry methods, it's an illegal rule.

Unfortunately, the same argument probably applies to other absolutely essential range safety rules, such as ceasing fire when people are going downrange to check their targets. Of course, someone violating *that* rule should probably be arrested and prosecuted for reckless endangerment, so you could argue that it's not so much a range rule as an application of existing law. When the Range Officer calls "cease fire" he's not giving order, he's informing you that people are going to be heading downrange, and choosing to fire would be unsafe and unlawful.

Other rules, such as the "no rapid fire" rule are interesting questions. I wouldn't be surprised that any number of the rules are actually illegal. Personally, I wouldn't press the issue, but someone probably could.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby rufus » Thu 30 Apr 2009 4:15 pm

Ruger

Contrary to what is posted here, with a few notable exceptions (sorry 'bout that but there are overbearing buttheads in every group), the RO's out there main goal in life is not to make life miserable for the customers. It's to make sure everybody goes home that day, happy if possible. We're volunteers. That means we're there cause we want to be of service and we enjoy what we do. There are times it's really tough as there are overbearing buttheads in the public also. As for me, a photocopy would be just fine. Matter of fact the folks I've asked, when they reach for their bag to show me the paper work are told if you're reaching for it you've got it and I leave them alone. The pros have it plainly visible so no question needs to be asked. Again, common sense can prevail.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby Ruger Collector » Thu 30 Apr 2009 5:05 pm

Rufus,

Thanks to you and all of the volunteers at LKC. What you do is very much appreciated and I didn't intend to sound as if you folks made me or any of my students miserable, quite the contrary.

I was just asking a few questions that I didn't know the answer to. I would much rather ask questions than go on assumptions and possibly give out misinformation.
If we fail to accomplish firearm safety by education, we increase the risk of draconian legislation.

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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby WPI*Tom » Thu 30 Apr 2009 6:11 pm

well why not have a day for Permit holders, those that do not want to spend twenty bucks just to go shoot that is what it cost me at a local indoor range. I know that the police use the range on some days. I wish I could go there and practice my draw and fire, that is all I wish and to do so with out paying an arm and leg. I took hunter safety out there and most of the guys I dealt with were very nice. So if there is a way we can rent or maybe use it on a day it is closed that would be great.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby Uncle Fester » Fri 01 May 2009 6:48 am

rufus wrote:Make sure you bring your paperwork, be prepared to show it...


If you're getting into law enforcement you should also ask for the paperwork on everything people bring there, then you can run their serial numbers through NCIC to make sure all of the items people bring there are legal. I appreciate the desire to make sure everything is legit, but why treat the person who brings a select fire rifle or suppressor without his paperwork, worse than the gang banger who drove (a car with a broken steering column and side window) there to shoot a Glock with an obscured serial? Maybe the ROs should focus on safety and education, and leave the law enforcement to the professionals.

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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby divegeek » Fri 01 May 2009 7:10 am

Uncle Fester wrote:
rufus wrote:Make sure you bring your paperwork, be prepared to show it...

If you're getting into law enforcement you should also ask for the paperwork on everything people bring there

And again, I really doubt that the range can legally demand paperwork as a condition for shooting.

ONLY the legislature can make firearms rules and policies.

Perhaps a review of the range rules by the AG is in order?
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby 11B20B4 » Fri 01 May 2009 7:16 am

swillden wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
rufus wrote:Make sure you bring your paperwork, be prepared to show it...

If you're getting into law enforcement you should also ask for the paperwork on everything people bring there

And again, I really doubt that the range can legally demand paperwork as a condition for shooting.

ONLY the legislature can make firearms rules and policies.

Perhaps a review of the range rules by the AG is in order?


And even if they were LEO, wouldn't we still have 4th amendment issues here?
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby Snurd » Fri 01 May 2009 7:20 am

That does sound strange that you would have to show paperwork for having a suppressor. My dad was able to get one a while back, and he was told (I believe by the sheriff, but maybe someone else) that he wouldn't have to prove to anyone that he had it legally. That's just what I got out of what he said. So it's strange to me that a range would require such paperwork.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby divegeek » Fri 01 May 2009 8:24 am

11B20B4 wrote:And even if they were LEO, wouldn't we still have 4th amendment issues here?

Indeed. They would have to have probable cause to believe that you didn't have the paperwork in order to demand that you prove you do.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby Car Knocker » Fri 01 May 2009 9:55 am

This is what BATF has to say about NFA firearms and paperwork (color emphasis mine):
(M25) Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her? [Back]

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner's name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25
Note that the feds do not require that a copy of the registration accompany the firearm when being transported. I don't see anything in Utah law that requires documentation of registration accompany a NFA firearm during transport. I fail to see any authority for a Utah state agency to demand documentation of registration of a NFA weapon before the owner can use it. It appears to me that the Lee Kay Center demand for documentation has no basis in law and is in direct contravention of existing state law - U.C.A. 76-10-500.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby SwordRapier » Mon 04 May 2009 1:23 pm

I am not taking a stand on whether I believe the rules at the LKC are legal or not, I just want to know if this law has any application to rules at the Lee Kay center. The State has been fairly aggressive about enforcing their gun law even to the point of taking the U of U to Utah’s Supreme Court regarding their gun polices. If the rules at the LKC are illegal it is an awfully public flaunting of the law. So I reversed the way of thinking I wonder if the rules are legally justified. Here is what I came up with.


76-8-311.1. Secure areas -- Items prohibited -- Penalty.
(1) In addition to the definitions in Section 76-10-501, as used in this section:
(a) "Correctional facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 76-8-311.3.
(b) "Explosive" has the same meaning as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" defined in Section 76-10-306.
(c) "Law enforcement facility" means a facility which is owned, leased, or operated by a law enforcement agency.
(d) "Mental health facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 62A-15-602.
(e) (i) "Secure area" means any area into which certain persons are restricted from transporting any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
(ii) A "secure area" may not include any area normally accessible to the public.
(2) (a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.

The LKC is run by the DNR. DNR is a law enforcement agency. Could they not legally state that their ranges are “secure areas” granting them the right to: ”prohibit or control by rule any forearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon or explosive.”

Now I am not sure how 76-8-311.1 e ii plays into this. One on hand the LKC is open to the public but, on the other you have to pay the entrance fee and agree to follow the rules so the LKC is not open to just anyone unlike a store or other public area. So perhaps it sill could be considered Secure.

Regardless, I still believe in following the rules otherwise we become elitist snobs and become our own worst enemy in our attempt to educate the public.

I support the rules a the Lee Kay Center. I will follow them. For the most part they are common sense and designed to keep us safe.

I do have my own story to tell about the Range Safety Officer at the LKC. I was at the range and having trouble with a revolver. The cylinder dismounted and I could not eject spent casings. The RSO’s called a cease fire figuring it was better to explain to the RSO what was going on I left the revolver on the table with three cases still in the cylinder.

I flagged down on RSO and explained the situation. He moved on with out incident. The other RSO came by a couple of minutes later and busted my chops for leaving a loaded firearm on the table. I explained to him the same thing I explained to the other RSO. After the ceasefire he was very helpful in assisting me in getting the stupid cases ejected.

The RSO’s have a difficult job for all they knew I could have been an idiot and left a loaded firearm on the table. I am sure that every one to them has had someone leave a loaded firearm on the table just before a bunch of people walk in front of the muzzles of firearms.

On a side note the manufacturer of the revolver replaced the cylinder at their expense shipping and all.

Also you know the drill. I am not a lawyer. I am just a wannabe novelist.
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Lee Kay Center no rapid fire policy

Postby LKCRO » Thu 11 Jun 2009 7:46 pm

I continue to see and hear no rapid fire policy complaints at LKC. I explained on an earlier post about baffles being shot up to the point where we had to shut down an entire summer season. We're almost at that point again. Gaps are large enough that birds are nesting in the baffles ... meaning that the baffles are not full of gravel as they should be. The following information should not come from me as a volunteer RO but rather, Utah State's Risk Management division. They may monitor a web site like this but I doubt they would post anything without legal approval. Simpy put, the job of Risk Management is to determine how badly the state has their butt hanging out. A big reason LKC does not allow rapid fire is that slower firing rates provide better on-target accuracy, meaning a higher percentage of bullets stike the dirt berm, not the tops of railroad ties or concrete sidewalks which cause bullets to escape the range.

In case you haven't noticed, on the back side of the pistol range berm, we have trap houses for the shotgunners. A lot of pistol rounds have been picked up on the shotgun range even though no rapid fire is enforced (as well as we can) on the pistol and rifle ranges. If you're proud that you didn't get caught practicing your double-tap, please go to the shotgun range and ask to use the east-most three or four trap houses as often as possible! :D Just kidding ... I don't want anyone hurt, even you!

The LKC pistol range has a few bullet launch pads that can throw bullets up and out between baffles or between the last baffle and the berm. As long as all bullets impact the berm, the shotgunners are safe. If at all possible, trap houses behind the pistol range are not used in order to reduce "probability of occurrence" (POC in risk management terms) of an accident. The pistol range has been improved over the years to reduce that type of bullet escape. The reductions in POC of bullets escaping the range are the only reason this range is still able to operate in the middle of this populated valley. Range safety does not end at the firing line. It extends to any point, and for any reason, a bullet can escape the range. Remember the large fire at LKC a year or two ago? 50 BMG round escaped the 300 yard range (through a railroad tie) and started the fire. No more 50 BMGs allowed. Get the jist? Oh, and we don't have Mt. Olympus as a backstop!

Thanks for your understanding. Please pass the word.
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby jaredbelch » Fri 12 Jun 2009 3:20 pm

Sounds like LKC should be sold off to a private business if they can't follow the law. I wouldn't want to see that, but it's the same as the Zoo, if you don't want to be subjected to the strict regulations of our uniform firearm laws, then raise funds and become private!
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Re: Lee Kay Center

Postby loudsixstring » Fri 11 Sep 2009 7:31 am

Going to Lee Kay today to zero the 308 on the 100yd range. If you're out there, I'm the guy with the long hair. I'll post here when I get back.

Check that.. Got called in to work.
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