Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

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Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby SKWYD » Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:27 pm

I just spoke with someone at the Kaysville UT based Crossroads of the West Gun Shows to ask if I was allowed to concealed carry at their South Town show this weekend. Imagine my surprise when I was told "We Request that you do not. You have no need for it at the show." I respectfully clarified that I would not be removing the firearm from my holster to shop for it, as I would bring my back up (same model) if I were shopping for it. She again repeated "We Request that you do not. You have no need for it at the show." :raisedbrow:

I then thanked the kind lady and ended the phone call. I am wondering if they also discourage my first amendment right to free speech, and of assembly, or my fourth amendment right to be free of unreasonable searches or seizures. I don't often find the need to be free from self incrimination, but it is still my right to do so. Okay so off of my soapbox, I guess it is a game of semantics where they don't exactly say "NO YOU MAY NOT CARRY THERE" but I am surprised to hear them say that they request I not exercise my 2nd amendment right, and the use of my Concealed Firearms Permit, at a show where people are promoting goods and services for both of those.

Anyone else find this odd at all? Does anyone know if the Rocky Mountain Gun Show has the same feelings?
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby Snurd » Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:46 pm

There are a couple threads on here already about gun shows. They probably say the same thing.
Every one I have been to in the last 8 or so years have had signs that say no loaded guns are allowed. It's not illegal to carry there against their wishes. I'm betting the people at Virginia Tech and other such places thought guns weren't needed either. You never know when something bad will happen. I always carry at the gun shows. But I hardly ever go there anymore since they suck so bad.


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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby D-FIN » Thu 19 Sep 2013 1:12 pm

I had always thought gun shows were where you get good deals and maybe in some cases that is so but I have found that most what is offered is no cheaper or harder to get than anything you can get at your LGS especially of you shop around a bit. In many case the cost is higher and much of the merchandise is used.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby bagpiper » Thu 19 Sep 2013 1:37 pm

D-FIN wrote:I had always thought gun shows were where you get good deals ...


In the past maybe. These days, they are as much a social event as anything else. But don't underestimate the value of that.

The antis may be evil, but they are not stupid. Those in the know hate gun shows not because of any supposed "loophole" but because of the role gun shows play in bringing like minded folks together, introducing new people, and reinforcing the notion that you are not alone in your views. These things may not be important any number of individuals. But to the community as a whole, they are valuable.

Gun shows are the talk radio of RKBA. I don't much care for talk radio personally. But I'm really glad it exists.

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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby bagpiper » Thu 19 Sep 2013 1:41 pm

SKWYD wrote:
Anyone else find this odd at all? Does anyone know if the Rocky Mountain Gun Show has the same feelings?


Do a quick search of the archives and you'll see a couple of threads on this topic.

Every gun show of which I'm aware has rules against loaded guns in the show. None of them around here have used metal detectors or other invasive means to find truly concealed guns. And no law is broken in Utah if a permit holder carries his concealed gun into a show despite their policy or request. But if your loaded gun is discovered, you may be ejected.

As I always say, gun shows are unique environments in which a huge number of persons are handling guns, working actions, even sighting guns, often with limited supervision and almost always without a safe backstop or even defined "downrange" zone. Special rules are warranted.

If you choose to carry, keep it completely concealed and you are not likely to have any issues. But do NOT unconceal for any reason other than to protect life & limb.

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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby gravedancer » Thu 19 Sep 2013 4:17 pm

Snurd wrote:You never know when something bad will happen. I always carry at the gun shows. But I hardly ever go there anymore since they suck so bad.


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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby Car Knocker » Thu 19 Sep 2013 6:03 pm

SKWYD wrote: I am wondering if they also discourage my first amendment right to free speech, and of assembly, or my fourth amendment right to be free of unreasonable searches or seizures. I don't often find the need to be free from self incrimination, but it is still my right to do so.


Generally speaking, the Bill of Rights does not apply to private property, private events, private businesses, etc. If you showed up at the gun show with a bullhorn with the intent of loudly promoting your religious or political views, it's likely you wouldn't even get in the door because you have no First Amendment right at that venue. I suspect there are restrictions applying to vendors pertaining to what printed and other visual/audio media they can exhibit. Various venues use magnetometers and physically search bags, backpacks, etc., before allowing entrance into the venue because Fourth Amendment protections do not apply. It's your choice whether to enter the building or venue with these restrictions. It's the same with the Second Amendment. Fortunately the State of Utah has chosen not to lend legal weight to "No Guns" signage however the choice to ignore such a sign may expose one to possible trespassing charges, depending on specific circumstances. Other states regard "No Guns" signage as legal notice and failure to abide by such signage is a violation of law.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby DaKnife » Thu 19 Sep 2013 9:25 pm

Just note that the South Towne Expo Center is not private property, It's owned by the County. It will be staffed primarily by Expo center staff, so the first bit of Car Knocker's post has zero relevance. If Crossroads of the West were to completely staff the event, there is a chance they might be able to claim private function in a leased facility, (not that I buy that argument) but when County employees are the vast majority of those staffing the event, even that argument is weakened.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby UtahJarhead » Fri 20 Sep 2013 5:50 am

DaKnife wrote:Just note that the South Towne Expo Center is not private property, It's owned by the County. It will be staffed primarily by Expo center staff, so the first bit of Car Knocker's post has zero relevance. If Crossroads of the West were to completely staff the event, there is a chance they might be able to claim private function in a leased facility, (not that I buy that argument) but when County employees are the vast majority of those staffing the event, even that argument is weakened.

Regardless of who is staffing it, the center is rented out by a private entity. Unless you can find a statute that makes that moot, that's all that matters.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby DaKnife » Fri 20 Sep 2013 8:23 pm

It's not moot because the only people who can enforce any restriction are CW employees. Neither Expo Center employees nor any LEO's can enforce any restriction or rule.
76-10-500 sub para 2. This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby UtahJarhead » Sat 21 Sep 2013 5:20 am

Yes, I know what preemption says.

It's easily arguable that the people are being contracted by CW and are enforcing rules on their behalf. In either case, it's CW employees that check the guns and zip tie them.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby DaKnife » Sat 21 Sep 2013 9:53 am

Please get us a copy of one of those individual contracts signed by each county employee, transferring their employment from the government entity to the private lessor of the venue. And I don't know about the zip tying person off to the side but last time I went to one of these the ticket/stamp checker who asked me if I had a firearm was wearing an Expo Center shirt, not a CW shirt.

I acknowledge the idea that leasing the venue gives full legal right to set the rules during the term of the lease, but that has no more been tested than has the view I hold that state property is state property and premption cannot be waived by renting out the venue. I know I'm in the minority with this view. SLC is trying to claim your view with their "independent" Arts council running the concert in the park events, and trying to go gun free.

But I don't buy it. The preemption law makes no allowance for signing away our rights in publicly owned facilities just because someone paid some money to reserve use of the space for a few hours. We the people still own the space and the law does not permit such rules, nor the enforcement of them. In fact allowing for such an exception could create the case where every event is a no gun zone, the county does not directly manage the facility, they've hired a venue management company to manage it and run scheduling, that private (out of state) firm could thus insert a no firearms clause into their standard rental agreement requiring all events to require no guns or all guns be zip tied. With that firearms would be banned from the county ownded entity, but pre-emption extends to the management company and beyond. It's a gov owned facility it is not legal to prohibit legal carry.

They could instead put a sign at the entrance requesting firearms be voluntarily zipped if visitors have any desire to handle the weapons on the floor of the venue, and an advisement to please not handle any weapon while in the show that has not been cleared and zipped. Perhaps with a citation of the penalties for discharging a firearm even accidently.

No that wouldn't be perfect but even with the current rule we still manage to have the occasional ND. So no system is perfect, but at least that would respect our rights and not try to skate around state preemption law.
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby SKWYD » Mon 23 Sep 2013 4:44 am

Okay I went to the show and ask at the zip tie desk if CW's were forbidden if they were only for carry and would not be removed from their holster to 'try something' while shopping. They said that if you were carrying a legally concealed weapon for protection that would and could only be removed for personal defense then it did not need to be checked. If however during my shopping, if I found the desire / need to extricate the weapon to 'try something' I could simply return to the desk to have it checked...they would be removing my ammunition though. Odd that after attending a gun show the only thing I brought home were some books and some gun lube :grinningjester:
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby UtahJarhead » Mon 23 Sep 2013 4:57 am

SKWYD wrote:Okay I went to the show and ask at the zip tie desk if CW's were forbidden if they were only for carry and would not be removed from their holster to 'try something' while shopping. They said that if you were carrying a legally concealed weapon for protection that would and could only be removed for personal defense then it did not need to be checked. If however during my shopping, if I found the desire / need to extricate the weapon to 'try something' I could simply return to the desk to have it checked...they would be removing my ammunition though. Odd that after attending a gun show the only thing I brought home were some books and some gun lube :grinningjester:

No, not odd... you must have noticed the prices, that's all!
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Re: Crossroads of the West Gun Shows

Postby Sam Fidler » Mon 23 Sep 2013 11:30 am

SKWYD wrote:Okay I went to the show and ask at the zip tie desk if CW's were forbidden if they were only for carry and would not be removed from their holster to 'try something' while shopping. They said that if you were carrying a legally concealed weapon for protection that would and could only be removed for personal defense then it did not need to be checked. If however during my shopping, if I found the desire / need to extricate the weapon to 'try something' I could simply return to the desk to have it checked...they would be removing my ammunition though. Odd that after attending a gun show the only thing I brought home were some books and some gun lube :grinningjester:

What gun lube did you take home? You should have also taken some of my ammo home. I still have one box of 9mm, 5 boxes of .45 ACP and a bunch of both .40 S&W and .223 left.

I carried at the show. I had a bunch of ammo and a few dozen guns worth protecting. It was covered but so loosely that anyone that bothered to look would have noticed it even without using the thermal imager we had set up.
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