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Bad Encounter with a SLC Policeman

10K views 21 replies 12 participants last post by  JoeSparky 
#1 ·
I was at a variety store that sells ammo and holsters, among a million other products. I saw a holster I wanted to test-fit, and asked the clerk if I could try it out with my own gun. She said yes.

Only after I pulled my .45 semi-auto from its concealed holster and started to clear it did she say she misunderstood, thinking I only meant to try the holster's fit on myself. She called their security department to ask if I could do what I had intended to do.

A couple of minutes later a uniformed SLC police officer appeared. I had set my gun on the counter, minus the magazine, and he asked if it was safe. I said I'd need to empty the chamber, and he OK'd my doing so. I let the round fall onto the counter, then handed him the gun with the action open. He examined it, closed the slide, and handed it back to me to test-fit the holster.

In the course of all this, he said, "You can't have a round in the chamber with a concealed handgun."

This surprised me, as I had researched the law completely, including the quirky bit about open-carry with a round in the chamber. I questioned him on that point, and he reiterated: nothing in the chamber with concealed-carry.

I generally don't argue with cops, so I said I must have misunderstood. I reloaded my weapon and re-holstered it under my jacket. He didn't pay attention, but I left the chamber empty in case he asked. He returned to his office somewhere in the back of the store.

Still puzzling over this, as I waited in line to buy the holster, I used my phone to search for more information. All I could find was the specifics about a CFP holder not having to keep an empty chamber with open-carry. There wasn't a specific law about empty chamber with concealed-carry because ... that's not the law.

I asked to see the policeman again. I showed him what I'd found on my phone, but he stuck to his guns (so to speak): He was certain the chamber had to be empty for concealed-carry.

It only took five minutes of searching this forum to get the right answer. Still unsure if I should follow up with him, or with the SLCPD.
 
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#2 ·
There are still policemen/women that don't know the laws regarding concealed carry or the lack of laws regarding open carry. There are a ton of laws they need to know. I would suggest getting in touch with the PD and let them know what happened. Be friendly and respectful. You could always email them and link the appropriate laws, and ask that they pass along the information to the officer.

The law indeed says that you can carry with a round chambered while concealing with a carry permit. There are no laws saying that you can't open carry, and that's why it is legal here.
 
#4 ·
Snurd said:
There are still policemen/women that don't know the laws regarding concealed carry or the lack of laws regarding open carry. There are a ton of laws they need to know. I would suggest getting in touch with the PD and let them know what happened. Be friendly and respectful. You could always email them and link the appropriate laws, and ask that they pass along the information to the officer.

The law indeed says that you can carry with a round chambered while concealing with a carry permit. There are no laws saying that you can't open carry, and that's why it is legal here.
What Snurd said. The cop was absolutely 100% incorrect. With a CFP, you may carry open or concealed, loaded or unloaded. Exactly as Snurd explained.
 
#6 ·
Something to note. Stores really like it when you have your gun unloaded prior to entering if you are going to test a holster with it. Some stores make you show them at customer service that it's unloaded to try out holsters or other accessories. Sportsman's warehouse in Midvale does this.

So if you plan on trying holsters, unload all the ammo before entering, then when back in your car you can reload if desired.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#7 ·
msmith65 said:
I just sent a much shorter account of the discussion to the SLCPD general e-mail info box.
please let us know what they say i am very interested in this
 
#8 ·
For someone that is issued a handgun for their job, you would think they would have to have at least the amount of training we have to to get a CFP (to be able to carry/conceal a firearm as well as be granted "Qualified Immunity" in their job). But they have very little firearm training (as is shown by the posts here and elsewhere concerning police encounters when the public is armed) and that is why there are so many instances where we see law enforcement encounters go bad when they see a gun or other weapon (sword or even a cellphone) that makes them fear for their lives.
Police officers spend many hours studying Traffic laws, and can quote most of them (code) by number because that is important for revenue generation and the primary start of "investigations for criminal offences".

The other problem is, you may as well just agree with the cop when they are wrong, they will never admit they are wrong or mistaken. (I am the authority figure here...how dare you!) This can become a problem because many times they will escalate the situation to save face...(DC and or resisting arrest charges, when there is no other laws broken or legitimate charges they can make stick)
 
#9 ·
RustyShackleford said:
...

The other problem is, you may as well just agree with the cop when they are wrong, they will never admit they are wrong or mistaken. (I am the authority figure here...how dare you!) This can become a problem because many times they will escalate the situation to save face...(DC and or resisting arrest charges, when there is no other laws broken or legitimate charges they can make stick)
While I generally agree, I know of at least one cop who can (and would) readily admit when he was in the wrong when presented with proof.

One of the local police in my hometown insisted that my license plates were expired during a traffic stop, in spite of having current tags. This came from running the plate and his terminal showing out of date info. He could have towed the car or taken the plates, but he just used his knife and took the current sticker off.

He was unaware of a second page on his terminal. Had he opened it, it would have shown current status.

After a couple of phone calls, he was knocking at my door really and truly apologetic. He was kind of there in an official capacity, but I knew him and could tell he was actually embarrassed by what he'd done.

I went to the station the following morning, got $10 out of petty cash, and got a new sticker from the DMV.

TL;DR version: There's bloviated jerks in every job, but there's genuine nice people as well. You just never know until they are called to act.
 
#10 ·
Bill801 said:
TL;DR version: There's bloviated jerks in every job, but there's genuine nice people as well. You just never know until they are called to act.
Agreed. The difference is, when I screw up on my job, they restarted a printer for no benefit. I don't curtail someone's Constitutional rights in the process.
 
#12 ·
Snurd said:
So if you plan on trying holsters, unload all the ammo before entering, then when back in your car you can reload if desired.
That is good practice. I had not anticipated trying a holster this time, so the thought didn't cross my mind. However, next time, even if I don't plan on testing holsters but change my mind, I will go back out and unload before returning to test-fit.

I've had such good encounters in Utah (no panic when the subject of guns comes up) that I did not anticipate these difficulties.
 
#13 ·
If an officer says something wrong, tell them that you understood the law differently and then ask them where it states what they are saying.

That is absolutely okay to do and it is what I would recommend to anyone confused by what a LEO is saying. If they tell you something they better be able to back it up with the State Code. Be fair though and give them time to look it up.
 
#14 ·
gskip33 said:
If an officer says something wrong, tell them that you understood the law differently and then ask them where it states what they are saying.
So, you're saying "Screw you, pig, I'll do what I want." is inappropriate? Note to self...

This explains a lot.
 
#15 ·
UtahJarhead said:
gskip33 said:
If an officer says something wrong, tell them that you understood the law differently and then ask them where it states what they are saying.
So, you're saying "Screw you, pig, I'll do what I want." is inappropriate? Note to self...

This explains a lot.
it's not against the law ;)
 
#16 ·
msmith65 said:
faydee said:
msmith65 said:
I just sent a much shorter account of the discussion to the SLCPD general e-mail info box.
please let us know what they say i am very interested in this
"Thank you for contacting us and for advising us about the interaction with the officer. We shall forward as requested!"
good, so a human has now looked at it, let us know if it goes farther like it should...
 
#17 ·
Asking a cop to verify and back up a claim they make about black and white law is not being disrespectful in any way. When you are issued a citation, they will state in black and white which section of the code they are alleging you violated.

I am friends and co-workers with several SLCPD cops, all of them.know better than this. I also would like to hear their response.
 
#18 ·
How about something like..... With all due respect Officer, could you show me the law regarding this? I ask because it's not what we're taught and it's very important that the concealed carry class teachers understand this. I would be happy to make a number of them aware of the issue....

I don't see how he could be in the least bit offended by that, and might take it as his civic responsibility to educate me, and help educate the rest of the community.

Mel

***Edit***

Or give the forum a nod by adding....I'm a member of the Utah Concealed Carry forum, and a lot of our members are instructors. If they are teaching the law incorrectly, they would want to be educated as well. If you're interested it's at http://www.ucc.com and we welcome members of the law enforcement community to join in our discussions.
 
#19 ·
quychang said:
How about something like..... With all due respect Officer, could you show me the law regarding this? I ask because it's not what we're taught and it's very important that the concealed carry class teachers understand this. I would be happy to make a number of them aware of the issue....

I don't see how he could be in the least bit offended by that, and might take it as his civic responsibility to educate me, and help educate the rest of the community.

Mel

***Edit***

Or give the forum a nod by adding....I'm a member of the Utah Concealed Carry forum, and a lot of our members are instructors. If they are teaching the law incorrectly, they would want to be educated as well. If you're interested it's at http://www.ucc.com and we welcome members of the law enforcement community to join in our discussions.
You would be surprised what certain "officers" would find offensive.... sometimes just looking or waving at them! No, not the single finger wave but a full open hand wave of greeting was found to be offensive when I once greeted an officer.
 
#20 ·
JoeSparky said:
You would be surprised what certain "officers" would find offensive.... sometimes just looking or waving at them! No, not the single finger wave but a full open hand wave of greeting was found to be offensive when I once greeted an officer.
Maybe you should have taken the box of donuts out of your hand first.
 
#21 ·
Snurd said:
JoeSparky said:
You would be surprised what certain "officers" would find offensive.... sometimes just looking or waving at them! No, not the single finger wave but a full open hand wave of greeting was found to be offensive when I once greeted an officer.
Maybe you should have taken the box of donuts out of your hand first.
^ Like!
 
#22 ·
Snurd said:
JoeSparky said:
You would be surprised what certain "officers" would find offensive.... sometimes just looking or waving at them! No, not the single finger wave but a full open hand wave of greeting was found to be offensive when I once greeted an officer.
Maybe you should have taken the box of donuts out of your hand first.
Did you want me to have left some donuts in that box? :lol3:
 
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