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Proactively addressing deficient training

7K views 24 replies 8 participants last post by  Karl 
#1 ·
Once again, I found myself reading all types of "preparedness" gun forums and coming away with the feeling that I have been a complete ignorant dork. I'd like to believe that their posts are meant to incentivize me to (minimally) get better training if not to buy their instructional videos. There is SO much to learn; it is completely and utterly overwhelming. How can one come up to speed on all the nuances of self defense? There is the training for the encounter: what to do what not to do; what to say and what not to say; when your hold your sidearm and when to go for it; the conditions and caveats of an ethical, reasonable, and legal use of self defense; how much I should train with my primary and then my secondary piece; the action and implication of pulling (some people have been arrested/sued just because the firearm owner moved his/her hand "suspiciously" without actually exposing the weapon); the post-incident legal stuff; the post-post threat of retribution--court or otherwise;... on and on and on!

The problem is: What do the training purveyors want? What is their aim? Of course it's to make money, but they truly believe that their training will save a life--mine, perhaps. There are DVDs, training camps, youtube videos, newsletters (along with the annoying: "Buy this and you will be registered to win [some firearm]"), self-defense-gun insurance (I have two, NRA and USCCA), and repeated allusions to some catastrophe that ought to drive me to train more. But, again I ask: what is their aim? I'm sure that you are in the same quandary as I am (or was).

I began some time ago analyzing the profferings. ALL of them drive toward para-military or para-police. I do NOT want that. I am a schmo... a guy who wants to do what is right, in the right place, right time, and in the right way. I esteem the armed forces so highly that to aspire that level is... well... discouraging and disheartening. That is precisely *not* what the purveyors of defensive Second Amendment training; I'm sure of it. Still, they go down this scary road, a road that my mind and my body will not be able to take. The need to understand all these things--pre-incident, incident, and post-incident. Getting pulled into the mishmash without knowing is the very heart string of Shakespearean tragedies. That kind of irony is what English speakers dote on: we find funny, we sympathize, and we experience it.

So, what can you or I do? Simply, identifying what we want to be and how to get there. If you want to paramilitary, go for it! If you want to be the poor shmuck that unwittingly gets what he gets for ignorance, oh, dear! If you are like me who wants somewhere in between...

Let's start.

I want to be a first responder to ameliorate a situation where the good guys retain their rights of life.
You may want to be more active -- seeking out the bad and, well, I don't know...

I may train for targets, accuracy, and some pre-, meso-, and post-incident action/recovery.
You may want to train for uneven fields, obstructed views, moving while shooting.

I may want to be an "expert witness." (For those who really know me... I simply cannot do this!)
You may want to seek out the assailant in the school or workplace and take-him-down. (Could I do that? Um...)

What do you guys think? I really want to know.
 
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#3 ·
You can take all the training you want to be some tacticool guy but when someone starts asking me about this or that tacticool training I have to ask do you have any training in the important every day stuff? Hows your first aid training? Have you taken a defensive driving course? If you ride ATV's or UTV's have you taken a rider course? Do you and or your family have a home fire evacuation plan and have you practiced it, heck do you and your family know how to use a fire extinguisher and have you ever shot one off?

Ya I know these aren't the cool trainings and you know how to drive and ride an ATV, I hear it all when I do the job required defensive driving classes or ATV rider course and the biggest complainers always comment at the end that they learned something new.

Firearm training is important if you are going to carry for protection but your chances of using a firearm in self defense are slim to none yet we worry about firearm training more then other classes one could take that benefit your life every day.

Take a few basic firearm classes, there are a couple trainers that post here once in awhile that are great, and work up from there. Once you take a few classes you might find you had enough or decided that maybe you want to branch out and take a long gun course or maybe a knife class. Most handgun classes just don't teach shooting things up but also touch on when to shoot and some local laws so a little bit of everything is touched on in each class.

Have you read this book? https://www.amazon.com/Utah-Gun-Law-Plain-Talk-Summaries/dp/0966972139 If not you should as it would help with a lot of your questions about laws.
 
#4 ·
Become proficient in the use of your defensive arms, whatever they may be. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. "Always cheat, and always win." Clint Smith

Always have a backup plan.

Those who choose not to be armed are not my responsibility. I am responsible for myself and my loved ones. All others must fend for themselves. If I can assist without endangering myself or my loved ones, then I may be so inclined. No guarantees, so don't depend on me to assist those who chose not to be armed/prepared.

You'll never know who, what, when, where, why, or how it will happen, so be prepared but don't train to only one scenario. It may never happen.

Avoidance is the best countermeasure. Stay out of the valley of the shadow of death. He that lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

Live your life to the fullest and never have any regrets.
 
#5 ·
muddy said:
You can take all the training you want to be some tacticool guy but when someone starts asking me about this or that tacticool training I have to ask do you have any training in the important every day stuff? Hows your first aid training? Have you taken a defensive driving course? If you ride ATV's or UTV's have you taken a rider course? Do you and or your family have a home fire evacuation plan and have you practiced it, heck do you and your family know how to use a fire extinguisher and have you ever shot one off?

Ya I know these aren't the cool trainings and you know how to drive and ride an ATV, I hear it all when I do the job required defensive driving classes or ATV rider course and the biggest complainers always comment at the end that they learned something new.

Firearm training is important if you are going to carry for protection but your chances of using a firearm in self defense are slim to none yet we worry about firearm training more then other classes one could take that benefit your life every day.

Take a few basic firearm classes, there are a couple trainers that post here once in awhile that are great, and work up from there. Once you take a few classes you might find you had enough or decided that maybe you want to branch out and take a long gun course or maybe a knife class. Most handgun classes just don't teach shooting things up but also touch on when to shoot and some local laws so a little bit of everything is touched on in each class.

Have you read this book? https://www.amazon.com/Utah-Gun-Law-Plain-Talk-Summaries/dp/0966972139 If not you should as it would help with a lot of your questions about laws.
...do you know how to shut off the gas, water, and electrical service in your home, in an emergency? Does everyone in your family/household know?
...do you know how to turn them back on? Does everyone in your family/household know?

...do you have arranged meeting places?
...do you have emergency code words?

...do you practice emergency procedures?
 
#6 ·
dewittdj said:
...do you know how to shut off the gas, water, and electrical service in your home, in an emergency? Does everyone in your family/household know?
...do you know how to turn them back on? Does everyone in your family/household know?

...do you have arranged meeting places?
...do you have emergency code words?

...do you practice emergency procedures?
Exactly, there is so much more to worry about then shooting.

A few years back my employer started to do fire extinguisher training for all 150 ish employees every couple of years and since I deal with the projects fire extinguishers I ended up setting up the class and helping the local instructors run the deal. I have to say it was quite eye opening watching the students fumble around with the extinguisher, have problems breaking the little tie used to hold the pin in place and generally be keyed up just putting out a little pan of gas that's on fire.
 
#7 ·
There is another aspect. I was told (note not "trained") by a cop-friend the procedures /they/ have to follow.

In an encounter, they must yell while putting up a defensive hand and reaching for the sidearm with the other: "Sir! Stop! Stop! Stop!" [I'm sure I'm getting this wrong.]

Then they must escalate if desired result fails.

The firearm is drawn and directed. The officer yells: "Sir! Put the [object] down!" or "Sir! Move away!" or "Sir! Back off!" or "Sir! On the ground!" or ...

The next escalation is 2 pops in succession at the assailant (I am sure that I am getting the fire count wrong). If that does not stop him/her/it, more pops until stopped. Sometimes immediate, full escalation is warranted.

The part I want to do is the yelling. That is the _fastest_ way to deescalate. Unless the assailant is on something, a bellowed command is very likely to deter most single confrontation. Two or more is a different story. But the vocalization of defense and command fits very, very well in a court of law. That is why cops do it.

The problem is that the correct place to do this is in the range. My cop friend told me that that is *required* in the range when doing scenarios [or even silhouettes, I believe]. I feel utterly foolish doing that in a public range. First is I am embarrassed. Second, and more importantly, it may call unnecessary attention. I have no problem barking commands in a situation, been there, done that.

This is I believe good, defensive practice for me and those like me. I don't need to be on a SWAT.

Question: Any ideas how I can practice this?
 
#8 ·
Dude you need to stop, slow down and take a deep breath. Stop listening to your cop friend because you are not a cop and don't need to act like one. First off you have no right to be barking commands telling anyone what to do or not do. If it ever comes down to a shooting situation you had better be sure its a shooting situation before you draw, now you can give a warning that you will shoot but standing around barking orders like a cop shouldn't be happening. If you have time to bark orders and act like a cop chances are you have time to get away from the situation. It sounds like you might be a younger guy and maybe listening to the mall ninja types?
 
#9 ·
There is never going to be a text book encounter so a "one-size-fits-all" response just doesn't exist, even for cops. So, train for the mostly likely scenarios is the best we can do.

The first lines of defense should include using situational awareness at all times to avoid, where possible, potentially risky places and/or scenarios. If something does begin to unfold, de-escalate, including the option of running away. If all else fails, you need to stop the threat. Now, that doesn't automatically mean using your firearm. It may include using verbal commands and/or some other OODA loop distraction technique. However, you should be prepared to escalate force as needed and appropriate if yours or a loved one's life is at stake. Milliseconds counts.

You're under no obligation to take on the world in such a situation by protecting and defending everyone around you. That's your choice. But, keep in mind, taking such action increases your risk of hitting an innocent person. That'll be game over for you in the sense of a fast-pass to prison.

If you take training from Mark and Brant (Real World PDS or Taylor Gunsmithing) they'll cover all the bases you're interest in. The final class of the season is usually a "Alumni Class Only" introducing force-on-force and airsoft scenarios to pull it all together. Sounds like that's something you might want to consider. I, and a few others on here, take all their classes. Even if you've already had the same or similar training it never hurts to always practice the basics. If muscle memory doesn't automatically kick in and you have to run things through in your head during a bad situation you're going to be on the wrong side of the situation.
 
#10 ·
muddy said:
Dude you need to stop, slow down and take a deep breath. Stop listening to your cop friend because you are not a cop and don't need to act like one. First off you have no right to be barking commands telling anyone what to do or not do. If it ever comes down to a shooting situation you had better be sure its a shooting situation before you draw, now you can give a warning that you will shoot but standing around barking orders like a cop shouldn't be happening. If you have time to bark orders and act like a cop chances are you have time to get away from the situation. It sounds like you might be a younger guy and maybe listening to the mall ninja types?
no. ignorant 53.
 
#13 ·
metalgimp said:
There is another aspect. I was told (note not "trained") by a cop-friend the procedures /they/ have to follow.

In an encounter, they must yell while putting up a defensive hand and reaching for the sidearm with the other: "Sir! Stop! Stop! Stop!" [I'm sure I'm getting this wrong.]

Then they must escalate if desired result fails.

The firearm is drawn and directed. The officer yells: "Sir! Put the [object] down!" or "Sir! Move away!" or "Sir! Back off!" or "Sir! On the ground!" or ...

The next escalation is 2 pops in succession at the assailant (I am sure that I am getting the fire count wrong). If that does not stop him/her/it, more pops until stopped. Sometimes immediate, full escalation is warranted.

The part I want to do is the yelling. That is the _fastest_ way to deescalate. Unless the assailant is on something, a bellowed command is very likely to deter most single confrontation. Two or more is a different story. But the vocalization of defense and command fits very, very well in a court of law. That is why cops do it.

The problem is that the correct place to do this is in the range. My cop friend told me that that is *required* in the range when doing scenarios [or even silhouettes, I believe]. I feel utterly foolish doing that in a public range. First is I am embarrassed. Second, and more importantly, it may call unnecessary attention. I have no problem barking commands in a situation, been there, done that.

This is I believe good, defensive practice for me and those like me. I don't need to be on a SWAT.

Question: Any ideas how I can practice this?
It is true that you need to practice in advance what you intend to do in the real situation. This is called "drill". The word probably comes from the phrase "drill it into you".

I think some people plan to be very quiet and wait to draw when they think they have no other choice.

There are pro's and con's to this approach.

The biggest pro is that it is simple, and you can concentrate on the situation without having to stop, think, and speak.

The disadvantage is that you are not trying at all to de-escalate the encounter. While there is no duty to retreat or to de-escalate in Utah, I prefer not to go to the police station and explain why I did not retreat nor try to de-escalate.

While I do not agree with adopting a long complex procedure such as LEO's must use, I would (and have) shouted "keep your distance" in such situations.

I actually had one fool shout back at me "Why should I keep my distance ?!"

I replied "Because it's the law."

Then the moron replied "I have never heard of that law."

To which I answered "Well you are about to learn a lot about the law of ballistics if you DON'T keep your distance."

By now he was within 5 feet of me -- way too close already -- and my 45ACP was unconcealed with my left hand while my right was firmly grasping the pistol with the snap unsnapped. I did not draw yet -- that would have been the next step. One flinch out of him and I would have drawn and shot him twice at close range. He backed down, but not without calling me "a *****" for having to rely on a gun. But I would rather be a living "*****" than a dead boxer.

So here is my own preplanned procedure, which I practice in front of the mirror in the bathroom with my pistol unloaded:

1 - if someone provokes you verbally DO NOT REPLY. Do not speak to them at all after that.

2 - keep him/them in view and be situationally aware; finish your drink and leave.

3 - if that person advances towards you then get on guard, unconceal and grasp your firearm without drawing, and shout "keep your distance!" You have to shout this loudly to trigger the freezing response in them. It has to be really loud. They will reflexively flinch and stop at the sound of being yelled at loudly -- everyone does. What you do next will depend on what they do next.

4 - if they started it, and if they assaulted you by lunging towards you, and they do not stop, or they go for their weapon, then you need to complete your draw and fire your weapon at them twice. At the same time you need to make sure there is nobody behind them that you could injure collaterally. If there is someone behind them then you need to go down on one knee so that your shot angles upwards and away from other people. The bullet will eventually come down somewhere too but that is not your immediate problem.

5 - if you hit them but they are still in control of their own weapon then you need to shoot them again until they are not moving.

6 - then you need to scan the area to see if they have an accomplice or an armed consort. Often times the lover of the perpetrator will shoot you when you are not looking.

7 - then you need to get the gun or knife away from them so they or anybody else cannot use it against you.

8 - then you need to call 9-1-1 and remain there until the police arrive.

9 - it is controversial whether you should or must render them first aid. I personally would not do it, but if someone else wants to help them that is fine with me.

10 - when the police arrive, holster your weapon. They are going to take you into custody and you are going downtown to give a detailed report of what happened. Don't make anything up. Just tell it like it is. If you lie or make something up or enhance anything you will probably get prosecuted.

Anyway that's what I was taught in my out-of-state CFP classes. They may or may not have gone into that amount of detail here in Utah because the Utah class is only 4 hours long. Other states often take 2 days plus time at the range.

Whether or not my procedure will work for you or not is something only you can decide. I can't tell you what to do. No procedure works equally well for everybody.

At the very least, you need to practice drawing from concealment with your firearm unloaded in front of a mirror. The mirror will tell you what you are doing wrong. It will be obvious. Your draw needs to be fast and efficient and when you are done the muzzle needs to be pointing directly at your reflection in the mirror and not off to the side.

My procedure for drawing from concealment is as follows:

- use both hands to unconceal, with the nonshooting hand holding the shirt/jacket away while the shooting hand grasps the firearm and unsnaps the retaining tab all in one move;

- draw the pistol just above the holster and then turn your hand with the pistol so that the butt is pressed against your side and the muzzle points at the assailant so that you can feel where it is without taking your eyes off the assailant;

- shoot twice from here if the assailant is really close within 1 to 5 feet;

- if you have enough time and distance come to a 2 handed grip with both your elbows bent and the firearm close to you;

- keep your finger off the trigger until you need to shoot;

- if need be (most people will have backed down by now) put your finger on the trigger and begin to squeeze, firing the weapon twice to center mass of the opponent;

- if the opponent is still coming at you or still in control of their own firearm then shoot again another pair of shots;

- if your first 4 shots had no effect on the opponent then carefully aim between his/her eyes and fire one round very carefully.

This all needs to be practiced in front of a mirror unloaded, then also at the range with live ammo.

Most ranges will not let you practice drawing however. So you will put the firearm down on the bench in front of you and pick it up slowly and carefully, then proceed as though you had just drawn from your holster.

I practice at the range with 25 rounds once per month. Ideal is weekly but that gets really expensive.

There is a lot to learn, and practice, and drill, and do.

Just as you don't become a musician by bringing home a musical instrument, you don't become a gunfighter just by bringing home a gun. Both require extensive practice.

I spelled all this out since it is now engrained in me and to give you some idea of what may be prudent.
 
#17 ·
metalgimp said:
Karl said:
...I spelled all this out since it is now engrained in me and to give you some idea of what may be prudent.
Wow! Thank you. I have saved and printed this. It looks like I really do need to contact a trainer to refresh my training.
Exactly. This is what we all need and should do.

I try to take at least 2 training classes per year with a professionally trained instructor in a classroom setting. The classroom setting enables the instructor to stress you with the others watching as you go through the final performance test. It's also a good way to make friends and compare notes and experiences.

I also practice shooting at the local indoor range monthly. Weekly is ideal, but that gets expensive.

Good luck.
 
#18 ·
Karl said:
...I try to take at least 2 training classes per year with a professionally trained instructor in a classroom setting. The classroom setting enables the instructor to stress you with the others watching as you go through the final performance test. It's also a good way to make friends and compare notes and experiences.
I also practice shooting at the local indoor range monthly. Weekly is ideal, but that gets expensive.
I'm going to make that a goal this year (along with losing 30lbs, learning German, and picking up my guitar again... oh, and connect with the kids better...;/). I've already gotten a membership at "Get Some" with the intent of shooting weekly. Yes, it's expensive, but it's helped in many ways. Along with other mechanical manipulation activities. See, I've had a number of anxiety attacks that has left my hands shaking. Drawing a straight line is frustrating, and my kids will jump in saying "Let me help you, dad." Controlled practices help me to focus on smoothing the tremors. This is the core of what I was saying at the beginning of this thread. I'm really trying to get things under /some/ control. And then, I see these vids that say: "do this!" "don't do that!" I come away frustrated and overwhelmed. Far be it that I replace a cop; that's just foolish and childish. I know that the Lord will help me as he has in the past... I've learned several techniques that have increased my accuracy and calmed my nerves. It's just, well, doing it right. Doing it correctly. Being able to say: "I've made progress; I like the progress I've made."
 
#19 ·
metalgimp said:
There is another aspect. I was told (note not "trained") by a cop-friend the procedures /they/ have to follow.

In an encounter, they must yell while putting up a defensive hand and reaching for the sidearm with the other: "Sir! Stop! Stop! Stop!" [I'm sure I'm getting this wrong.]

Then they must escalate if desired result fails.

The firearm is drawn and directed. The officer yells: "Sir! Put the [object] down!" or "Sir! Move away!" or "Sir! Back off!" or "Sir! On the ground!" or ...

The next escalation is 2 pops in succession at the assailant (I am sure that I am getting the fire count wrong). If that does not stop him/her/it, more pops until stopped. Sometimes immediate, full escalation is warranted.

The part I want to do is the yelling. That is the _fastest_ way to deescalate. Unless the assailant is on something, a bellowed command is very likely to deter most single confrontation. Two or more is a different story. But the vocalization of defense and command fits very, very well in a court of law. That is why cops do it.

The problem is that the correct place to do this is in the range. My cop friend told me that that is *required* in the range when doing scenarios [or even silhouettes, I believe]. I feel utterly foolish doing that in a public range. First is I am embarrassed. Second, and more importantly, it may call unnecessary attention. I have no problem barking commands in a situation, been there, done that.

This is I believe good, defensive practice for me and those like me. I don't need to be on a SWAT.
when you
Question: Any ideas how I can practice this?
These procedures your friend has reported to you must be a Department policy. Utah's Law for use of force by officers states that a verbal command should be given when feasible. It's not required. However, In my opinion, giving a loud verbal command is only for nearby witnesses to hear. They are not for the bad guy. I do not intend to speak to a person pointing a weapon at me. Utah has lost an Officer that was speaking to an armed suspect that was pointing a gun at him. The bad guy fired first.

Teaching officers to fire two rounds then re assess is creating HUGE training scars. You continue to engage the threat until he is no longer a threat, you are not shooting to kill, Your shooting to stop. Death is just a side effect. This is not what thousands of hours of firearms training has taught me over the past 20 years of being an LEO, I have been in two gun fights and walked away from both unharmed physically.

The absolute best practice you can get is starting with the fundamentals. Once you have these down they can and should be practiced at home everyday beginning when you are ready to holster the weapon for the day. I encourage all of CFP student's to purchase orange training rounds and working through all the malfunctions so if they encounter one they will be able to clear it and stay in the fight.

Find good quality training from a solid instructor. Take a note book to the class and write the drills down you perform in the class. Have another student film you on your phone so you can reference it later. You purchased the information you received in class, save it for later and continue on with the drills you learned. It takes around 3000 reps for a drill to become muscle memory, keep working them.

Don't take a class from someone who refuses to give you their bio prior to taking the class!!!! As an Officer and prominent firearms instructor with my department, I am always looking for training outside the LEO community. However, I am paying for that training our pocket so I need to know I'm not dropping money on someone who is pulling info out of the air as I will be bringing that info back to train others.

Lastly, I do not EVER give advise to my friends as to how to handle a threat in public. If something goes South then I am liable for what took place. I do however share ALOT of drills with my friends when we go to the range.
 
#21 ·
UTGunslinger said:
metalgimp said:
There is another aspect. I was told (note not "trained") by a cop-friend the procedures /they/ have to follow.

In an encounter, they must yell while putting up a defensive hand and reaching for the sidearm with the other: "Sir! Stop! Stop! Stop!" [I'm sure I'm getting this wrong.]

Then they must escalate if desired result fails.

The firearm is drawn and directed. The officer yells: "Sir! Put the [object] down!" or "Sir! Move away!" or "Sir! Back off!" or "Sir! On the ground!" or ...

The next escalation is 2 pops in succession at the assailant (I am sure that I am getting the fire count wrong). If that does not stop him/her/it, more pops until stopped. Sometimes immediate, full escalation is warranted.

The part I want to do is the yelling. That is the _fastest_ way to deescalate. Unless the assailant is on something, a bellowed command is very likely to deter most single confrontation. Two or more is a different story. But the vocalization of defense and command fits very, very well in a court of law. That is why cops do it.

The problem is that the correct place to do this is in the range. My cop friend told me that that is *required* in the range when doing scenarios [or even silhouettes, I believe]. I feel utterly foolish doing that in a public range. First is I am embarrassed. Second, and more importantly, it may call unnecessary attention. I have no problem barking commands in a situation, been there, done that.

This is I believe good, defensive practice for me and those like me. I don't need to be on a SWAT.
when you
Question: Any ideas how I can practice this?
These procedures your friend has reported to you must be a Department policy. Utah's Law for use of force by officers states that a verbal command should be given when feasible. It's not required. However, In my opinion, giving a loud verbal command is only for nearby witnesses to hear. They are not for the bad guy. I do not intend to speak to a person pointing a weapon at me. Utah has lost an Officer that was speaking to an armed suspect that was pointing a gun at him. The bad guy fired first.

Teaching officers to fire two rounds then re assess is creating HUGE training scars. You continue to engage the threat until he is no longer a threat, you are not shooting to kill, Your shooting to stop. Death is just a side effect. This is not what thousands of hours of firearms training has taught me over the past 20 years of being an LEO, I have been in two gun fights and walked away from both unharmed physically.

The absolute best practice you can get is starting with the fundamentals. Once you have these down they can and should be practiced at home everyday beginning when you are ready to holster the weapon for the day. I encourage all of CFP student's to purchase orange training rounds and working through all the malfunctions so if they encounter one they will be able to clear it and stay in the fight.

Find good quality training from a solid instructor. Take a note book to the class and write the drills down you perform in the class. Have another student film you on your phone so you can reference it later. You purchased the information you received in class, save it for later and continue on with the drills you learned. It takes around 3000 reps for a drill to become muscle memory, keep working them.

Don't take a class from someone who refuses to give you their bio prior to taking the class!!!! As an Officer and prominent firearms instructor with my department, I am always looking for training outside the LEO community. However, I am paying for that training our pocket so I need to know I'm not dropping money on someone who is pulling info out of the air as I will be bringing that info back to train others.

Lastly, I do not EVER give advise to my friends as to how to handle a threat in public. If something goes South then I am liable for what took place. I do however share ALOT of drills with my friends when we go to the range.
I'll bet you are a great instructor, UTG.

Do you also train civilians or only police?
 
#22 ·
UTGunslinger said:
...in my opinion, giving a loud verbal command is only for nearby witnesses to hear. They are not for the bad guy.
Yes, that's right. I failed to mention that initially, and that may have raised the klaxons of alarm for people.

UTGunslinger said:
...is starting with the fundamentals. Once you have these down they can and should be practiced at home everyday beginning when you are ready to holster the weapon for the day. I encourage all of CFP student's to purchase orange training rounds and working through all the malfunctions so if they encounter one they will be able to clear it and stay in the fight.
Are those "snapcaps"?
 
#23 ·
metalgimp said:
UTGunslinger said:
...in my opinion, giving a loud verbal command is only for nearby witnesses to hear. They are not for the bad guy.
Yes, that's right. I failed to mention that initially, and that may have raised the klaxons of alarm for people.

UTGunslinger said:
...is starting with the fundamentals. Once you have these down they can and should be practiced at home everyday beginning when you are ready to holster the weapon for the day. I encourage all of CFP student's to purchase orange training rounds and working through all the malfunctions so if they encounter one they will be able to clear it and stay in the fight.
Are those "snapcaps"?
I myself on the other hand have found that an extremely loud shout to "keep your distance!" instinctively and reflexively causes a person to stop dead in their tracks.

And that is exactly what you want them to do as you back away and re-establish your safety interval.

If they cannot reach you with a punch or a grab, then you are still safe.

This has also been when I un-conceal my firearm and grip it firmly, releasing the snap that holds it in the holster.

For the hip holster I don't need to draw it yet, but I do need a safe interval between me and them.

For my shoulder holster I DO need to draw it, and then I point it in the carry position close by my side pointed upwards. From there I can quickly swing it down and aim it.

If there are witnesses, shouting also does attract their attention, indeed. But that's not the main reason in my case.

Most of the times I have had to draw, I have been alone, with no other witnesses present.

LEO's are usually on-mike and/or on-camera and therefore shouting commands serves a different purpose for them while on duty.

You always need to be aware of your situation, you need to keep others away from you, and if someone makes an aggressive move you need to get away and re-establish your safety interval. 10 feet is my minimum safety interval.

Shouting helps to re-establish that interval reflexively and instinctively for them. They are not used to be shouted at, is why. They are used to cowards and shy types. So shouting works well for me.

They will only hear one shout however. The next thing they will hear is the sound of thunder.

I like to give them 1 chance to back down. It saves a lot of paperwork. Saves a lot of bad publicity too.
 
#24 ·
Karl said:
metalgimp said:
UTGunslinger said:
...in my opinion, giving a loud verbal command is only for nearby witnesses to hear. They are not for the bad guy.
Yes, that's right. I failed to mention that initially, and that may have raised the klaxons of alarm for people.

UTGunslinger said:
...is starting with the fundamentals. Once you have these down they can and should be practiced at home everyday beginning when you are ready to holster the weapon for the day. I encourage all of CFP student's to purchase orange training rounds and working through all the malfunctions so if they encounter one they will be able to clear it and stay in the fight.
Are those "snapcaps"?
I myself on the other hand have found that an extremely loud shout to "keep your distance!" instinctively and reflexively causes a person to stop dead in their tracks.

And that is exactly what you want them to do as you back away and re-establish your safety interval.

If they cannot reach you with a punch or a grab, then you are still safe.

This has also been when I un-conceal my firearm and grip it firmly, releasing the snap that holds it in the holster.

For the hip holster I don't need to draw it yet, but I do need a safe interval between me and them.

For my shoulder holster I DO need to draw it, and then I point it in the carry position close by my side pointed upwards. From there I can quickly swing it down and aim it.

If there are witnesses, shouting also does attract their attention, indeed. But that's not the main reason in my case.

Most of the times I have had to draw, I have been alone, with no other witnesses present.

LEO's are usually on-mike and/or on-camera and therefore shouting commands serves a different purpose for them while on duty.

You always need to be aware of your situation, you need to keep others away from you, and if someone makes an aggressive move you need to get away and re-establish your safety interval. 10 feet is my minimum safety interval.

Shouting helps to re-establish that interval reflexively and instinctively for them. They are not used to be shouted at, is why. They are used to cowards and shy types. So shouting works well for me.

They will only hear one shout however. The next thing they will hear is the sound of thunder.

I like to give them 1 chance to back down. It saves a lot of paperwork. Saves a lot of bad publicity too.
Karl my friend if you are letting a potential threat with in 10 feet of you your already behind the curve. Your underestimating the distance a bad guy can cross in a fraction of a second. Action is faster than reaction!!!

If I can recommend a drill for you tryout the next time you go a range that will allow you to do more than just stand there. I guess you could this dry in your back yard too.

You need at least two friends for this. Have one friend off to the side with a shot timer or a whistle. Something that can signal GO. The second friend will stand back to back with you. On the buzzer your friend starts running while you draw and shoot down range. When the friend running hears the shot he stops running and just turns around. This is you reaction distance, anything inside this distance and you lose. Do it several times so you get a good average distance. If your using a shot timer you can get an average time too.

It takes your brain .75 seconds to recognize a threat and another .75 seconds to download a response and react to it. Your already 1 1/2 seconds behind the threat.

If your in the back yard you'll just to yell bang when your ready to fire.

If you ever do get into a shooting you can report this info as to why you reacted when you did.
Unholstering or brandishing your weapon prior to a viabl threat is present you are committing a crime. You can tell the person you have a weapon, but you cannot brandish it until the situation has reached The threat of death or serious body injury. A threatening presence is not grounds to draw. I may not agree with a lot of people in this group, however, I do not want to see anyone in this group be in a bad shooting. Especially if I have to respond to it.

30 foot minimum on threats. 21 feet is way to close nowadays.
 
#25 ·
I agree -- that 10 feet is already too close.

And I know all about 21 feet (7 yards).

The difference is 10 feet is about the best you are ever going to do in a bar or in a bank or in your neighborhood.

So at that point you need to start backpedalling just like Bruce Lee says in his book.

Backpedalling gives you the needed interval which is the equivalency if you were standing flat footed and someone started at you from 21 feet.

1 - situational awareness

2 - maintain your interval

3 - move don't stand flat footed

4 - backpedal if need be (aka retreating -- I know I know there is no duty to retreat in Utah -- still it is a very good strategic and also tactical idea)

4 - give a very loud command to "keep your distance!"

5 - draw and fire if needed, probably twice at least, and more if needed

Etc as outlined above.
 
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