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18yr-old w/ Maine permit carrying at school?

8K views 12 replies 7 participants last post by  bagpiper 
#1 ·
With the recent news regarding the proposed law to lower the age of conceal carry in Utah to 18 years-old I have a question. I am familiar with the process for an 18 year-old to obtain a Maine non-resident permit. I have helped several people do it. However I was very much under the impression that an 18 year-old with a Maine non-resident permit still could NOT carry into a public school in Utah. However with the recent proposed legislation to allow 18 year-olds in Utah to get a Utah permit I wanted to revisit this issue. I know the proposed law specifically says and 18 year-old with a permit can NOT carry into a public school. However some of the comments I have read indicate with a Maine non-resident permit you can carry into a school.
So the question is simply: Can an 18 year-old high school student in Utah, who has a Maine non-resident permit carry a gun into his high school?
Please cite laws if you can. Thanks!
**Yes, I could probably go dig this all up myself, but I'm lazy and don't want to make the time to go do it. Easier to post and ask all the scholars here.
 
#2 ·
I'll try to find the law, but a quick response is no, they can't. The permit issued has to be from the state that the school is in for that person to be allowed to carry on school grounds. That's the federal law. Most states don't allow carry on school grounds anyway though. Let me look for the law. Hold please.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#3 ·
Here is the law:

Linkarooskie Second page, right side.

Feds said:
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
The wording appears to be the same. I couldn't copy and paste from the ATF PDF, but I found it on another site, which should have identical wording.
 
#4 ·
You must have a Utah permit to carry in utah's k-12 schools. Technically it should be ok on college campuses but could might be argued and not sure I'd want to be the test case.
 
#5 ·
D-FIN said:
You must have a Utah resident permit to carry in utah's k-12 schools. Technically it should be ok on college campuses but could might be argued and not sure I'd want to be the test case.
Only difference between resident and non resident permits in Utah are the qualification requirements and the address on the permit. Otherwise no difference.
Snurd said:
Here is the law:

Linkarooskie Second page, right side.

Feds said:
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
The wording appears to be the same. I couldn't copy and paste from the ATF PDF, but I found it on another site, which should have identical wording.
2nd Amendment--- The First and Original Homeland Security!
 
#6 ·
There is no requirement for the licensed individual to be a resident of the state issuing the license. The licensed issued and the state in which the school are located must be the same, e.g. permit issued by Utah, school in question is in the State of Utah.

U.S. FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE, TITLE 18, CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS: Title 18 Chapter 44

School Zone concealed firearm permit exception, (922 (q) (2) (B) (ii)
1. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.

To answer the original question, NO! A student with a Maine permit is not legally allowed to carry in a Utah public school, regardless of whether or not the student is a Utah resident.
 
#8 ·
That's what I thought. But after reading some posts by some people that acted like they knew what they were talking about I was second guessing myself. Thanks guys!!!
 
#9 ·
Paul said:
That's what I thought. But after reading some posts by some people that acted like they knew what they were talking about I was second guessing myself. Thanks guys!!!
So just to summarize what others have posted:

There is nothing in Utah State law to prevent an 18 year old with a Maine permit from carrying into a K-12 school in Utah.

However, the federal GFSZ law doesn't recognize the non-Utah permit for carrying into school zones in Utah. The residency of the permit holder is irrelevant. But to meet BATF interpretation of the federal GFSZ law, the permit must be issued by the State in which the school / school zone is located in order to provide exemption to the federal GFSZ law.

Somewhat related then, since colleges in Utah are GFSZs only under State law and not under federal law, that 18 year old with a Maine permit is perfectly legal to carry onto college campuses and into college buildings.

IANAL, yadda yadda, etc.

Charles
 
#10 ·
bagpiper said:
There is nothing in Utah State law to prevent an 18 year old with a Maine permit from carrying into a K-12 school in Utah.
I just realized that this has now changed, thanks to H.B. 109

144 (2) Notwithstanding Subsection 76-10-505.5(2), a person under the age of 21 with a
145 permit of any kind to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm on or about
146 school premises, as defined in Subsection 76-10-505.5(1)(a).
IANAL, yadda, yadda, etc. either, but I'm telling my 17-yo son, he can't carry at or near a school until he's 21. And according to my limited legal reading skills, that would preclude carry with a Maine permit, also.

Can I hear the sound of my electrons echoing in the empty fora here? Seems pretty quiet.
 
#11 ·
manithree said:
bagpiper said:
There is nothing in Utah State law to prevent an 18 year old with a Maine permit from carrying into a K-12 school in Utah.
I just realized that this has now changed, thanks to H.B. 109

144 (2) Notwithstanding Subsection 76-10-505.5(2), a person under the age of 21 with a
145 permit of any kind to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm on or about
146 school premises, as defined in Subsection 76-10-505.5(1)(a).
IANAL, yadda, yadda, etc. either, but I'm telling my 17-yo son, he can't carry at or near a school until he's 21. And according to my limited legal reading skills, that would preclude carry with a Maine permit, also.

Can I hear the sound of my electrons echoing in the empty fora here? Seems pretty quiet.
Depending on what you mean by near and on what permit he is carrying there might be minor corrections.

Federal law doesn't recognize an out-of-State permit for purposes of the federal GFSZ that includes the school, the grounds thereof, and the 1000 foot exclusion zone out from the edge of the school property, as the crow flies. So, under federal law, anyone under 21 carrying on a non-Utah permit, must avoid K-12 schools, the property thereof, and most any property (other than private residences in which they are legal) within 1000 feet of the edge of the school property.

However, federal law does grant an exception to the federal GFSZ to any person carrying pursuant to a permit issued by the State in which the school is located so long as the permit process involves a background check. Utah's permit, including the soon-to-be new "Provisional" permit for those 18 to 20 years of age, meets these requirements. So as I read the federal GFSZ law, an 18 to 20 year old with a Utah Provisional Permit to carry can legally carry within a federal GFSZ.

State law bans Provisional Permit holders from carrying on K-12 school property or in the school itself. State law does not include any 1000 foot exclusion zone.

So, as I read federal and State law, a person with a Utah Provisional Permit can legally carry right up to the edge of school property. Under federal law, that person could carry onto school property and into the school itself. But State law bans that.

Similarly, Utah State law recognizes all permits issued nationwide so an 18 year old with a Maine permit could also carry right up to the edge of school property. But that person would be in violation of federal law.

Charles
 
#12 ·
bagpiper said:
However, federal law does grant an exception to the federal GFSZ to any person carrying pursuant to a permit issued by the State in which the school is located so long as the permit process involves a background check. Utah's permit, including the soon-to-be new "Provisional" permit for those 18 to 20 years of age, meets these requirements. So as I read the federal GFSZ law, an 18 to 20 year old with a Utah Provisional Permit to carry can legally carry within a federal GFSZ.
I hope you're right, but the federal GFSZ law says it doesn't apply "if you're licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located." Still not a lawyer, yadda, yadda, but that could mean that the federal exemption is only as permissive as the state, but never more permissive.

bagpiper said:
So, as I read federal and State law, a person with a Utah Provisional Permit can legally carry right up to the edge of school property. Under federal law, that person could carry onto school property and into the school itself. But State law bans that.

Similarly, Utah State law recognizes all permits issued nationwide so an 18 year old with a Maine permit could also carry right up to the edge of school property. But that person would be in violation of federal law.
Again, I would love it if you are correct, but it hinges on what the legislature means (or how the courts interpret) "on or about school premises." Is that a nod to the federal 1000-foot zone?

More importantly, what am I willing to try to explain to a 17-yo, and what will the new BCI training say? For now, I'll probably stick with the safest, most restrictive interpretation. It likely only matters if you commit a crime in a GFSZ, but if BCI ends up telling CFP instructors provisional permit holders can carry right up to the edge of school property, I'll be pleased and surprised.
 
#13 ·
manithree said:
I hope you're right, but the federal GFSZ law says it doesn't apply "if you're licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located." Still not a lawyer, yadda, yadda, but that could mean that the federal exemption is only as permissive as the state, but never more permissive.
I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a judge. But notice that the federal GFSZ act says:

USC 18 922 q said:
B) [The ban on private guns in school zones] does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
...
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
It doesn't say the individual has to be licensed to carry in the school or school. Only that the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to "do so" which is reasonably interpreted as "licensed to possess the firearm". Even it means "licensed to possess the gun in a school zone", Utah law very specifically does not ban an 18 year old from possessing a gun at the edge of school property, only on school property itself as I explain below.

manithree said:
Again, I would love it if you are correct, but it hinges on what the legislature means (or how the courts interpret) "on or about school premises." Is that a nod to the federal 1000-foot zone?
What the legislature means is very clear as the legislature defined it in 76-10-505.5:

76-10-505.5 said:
76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or short barreled shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.

(1) As used in this section, "on or about school premises" means:
(a)
(i) in a public or private elementary or secondary school; or

(ii) on the grounds of any of those schools;

(b)
(i) in a public or private institution of higher education; or

(ii) on the grounds of a public or private institution of higher education; and

(iii)
(A) inside the building where a preschool or child care is being held, if the entire building is being used for the operation of the preschool or child care; or

(B) if only a portion of a building is being used to operate a preschool or child care, in that room or rooms where the preschool or child care operation is being held.
So, for K-12 schools, "on or about school premises" means, the building or actual grounds of that school. Defined in clear, black letters as it were. Might a judge rule something different? Sure. He might decide also decide 1000 feet really means 10 miles. But if we live our lives in fear of that, we can't carry anywhere, can we?

manithree said:
More importantly, what am I willing to try to explain to a 17-yo, and what will the new BCI training say? For now, I'll probably stick with the safest, most restrictive interpretation. It likely only matters if you commit a crime in a GFSZ, but if BCI ends up telling CFP instructors provisional permit holders can carry right up to the edge of school property, I'll be pleased and surprised.
I certainly would not go contrary to what BCI has to say. It might also be interesting to see what Mitch Vilos has to say. But in any case, I think the law should be read by those who will be making the decision. An instructor might offer various possible interpretations or precedence. Then, the individual can make as fully informed decision as possible. Those who carry guns need to know how to find, read, and understand laws on their own as laws change every year and we don't require retraining. While not required as part of the permit class, I think instructors ought to provide some education on finding, reading, and properly understanding legislative language. For example, the importance of lists separated by commas and with an "or" between various elements, vs conditions with "ands" between them. Consider the difference between (A and B) or C vs A and (B or C). Legislation usually lacks the clarity of parentheses and instead uses commas and semi colons. But the principle is the same.

Charles
 
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