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Confrontation

23K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  althor 
#1 ·
It's been a while since I've been a regular here, but I've had an issue, and want to double check I'm on firm legal ground.

On Friday nights, some friends and I migrate to McDonalds (Provo) for some all night conversation and nerd-gaming. (Magic)

One of the regulars came dressed in drag to join us, and after leaving the bathroom, a homeless guy started harassing me, asking if the guy in drag needed to be arrested. I mentioned that he was a friend of mine, and the homeless guy said 'Oh, you're one of those fairies too? Where I come from, guys like you end up face down in the river.'

Seeing as I am 6'3, 280, and he is ~5'7, 160, I asked him incredulously if he really thought he was capable of putting me in the river.

'Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows.'

Considering I have around $6,000 worth of cards on me, I carry when I meet up with my friends. I really do not want a confrontation with this guy, but he also rather blatantly threatened to kill me. What are my options going forward with this guy?
 
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#2 ·
I would have called the police right there and tried to get a photo or video of him. Threatening to kill anyone isn't okay. If I were you, I would still call the police and see if that McDonald's has video of the guy.

I would still carry in case he tries anything, but get the police involved.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#3 ·
Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.
 
#4 ·
Daeyel said:
Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.
At least a picture or something that maybe one of your friends can get. Or video from a security camera.

I would rather have the police involved and know about the situation and possibly get it resolved that way, instead of the guy confronting me again and possibly going downhill. Though he may do it anyway even if the police are involved. That's why it's good to carry.

Pepper spray is also a great way to stop people who attack if they aren't armed. I've had to use it and it worked great. Called the police right after and filed a report of the guy that attacked me. I'm sure he still wishes he hadn't done it. Speaking of that, I need to get a couple more smaller cans.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#5 ·
Daeyel said:
Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.
Starting an audio recording on your phone and putting it in your pocket when you see the guy isnt aggressive and would at least give you audio coverage
 
#7 ·
James said:
He said, "Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows."

That is where I would have drawn my gun and said: "Face down on the ground and keep your hands out." If he complies fine, if not just shoot the SOB. He did just threaten your life right? One is justified in self defense.
He did, however from the story, he showed no weapon. You drawing and shooting would land you in prison. You can only use force required to stop the threat. You can't use lethal force if that force is not presented to you.

You might be able to try to keep him there while police arrive, and maybe they would do something. But with most likely no proof, and him not revealing a weapon of some sort, you would be screwed if you shot him.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#9 ·
James, no physical attack was made. Your bravado does this community no good. Nobody is saying do not engage in self defense when warranted. What we are saying is that every bullet comes with a squad of very expensive lawyers attached, just drawing the weapon may come with a lawyer attached. If you carry, it is your responsibility to ensure that the firearm is the very last resort.

The individual made a verbal comment, but did not draw or show any firearm, or engage in any physical altercation. There was no deadly threat presented to justify your use of deadly force in return. And drawing your firearm is use of deadly force. You might be able to justify drawing to hold the individual for the threat until the police arrive. But it's a stretch, and by reaching for your firearm you may just escalate the situation to where shots may be required. And you have no justification for shooting based on a verbal statement alone if he chose not to get down on the ground.

Better by far to just ignore such idiots as the idiots they are. And as noted by physical size alone the idiot is very idiotic. Ignore them, certainly keep an eye on them, if they don't drop it call the police, but save your use and even threatened use of deadly force until an actual threat is presented. Words alone are not justification for at a minimum emptying your bank account in legal defense fees and possibly losing your right to keep and bear arms as well as your freedom.
 
#10 ·
James said:
So, you are going to stand there and let him beat the piss outa you and can't draw your weapon cause he doesn't have one?

He did just threaten to shoot you. Bam, Bam, Bam, that's gunfire. Perhaps he did not show a gun but he surely threatened to shoot you.

I guess you can run like the dickens and see if you can out run him? :dunno:
Where did I say that I would just stand there and let him beat me up?

Look back at the post. The person giving the verbal threat is much smaller than the one being threatened. I'm sure if the guy had landed a punch on Daeyel, said person would probably either get knocked out, or be put to the ground and held there until police arrived.

Other than that, pulling your gun on someone who is much smaller would get you in trouble, not them. Yes, he threatened you, but zero action was taken. Record the incident if you can. Call the police. Don't shoot the guy, or you go to prison.

We are talking about this situation only, not a different situation under different circumstances.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#11 ·
James said:
So, you are going to stand there and let him beat the piss outa you and can't draw your weapon cause he doesn't have one?

He did just threaten to shoot you. Bam, Bam, Bam, that's gunfire. Perhaps he did not show a gun but he surely threatened to shoot you.

I guess you can run like the dickens and see if you can out run him? :dunno:
To me... that reads like bravado and not an actual threat, more like an implied capability. In fact he was directly responding to a question that was asked, even if it was a smartaѕѕ reply. If I were on a jury, I would not have considered this a valid threat.
 
#15 ·
Snurd said:
James said:
He said, "Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows."

That is where I would have drawn my gun and said: "Face down on the ground and keep your hands out." If he complies fine, if not just shoot the SOB. He did just threaten your life right? One is justified in self defense.
He did, however from the story, he showed no weapon. You drawing and shooting would land you in prison. You can only use force required to stop the threat. You can't use lethal force if that force is not presented to you.

You might be able to try to keep him there while police arrive, and maybe they would do something. But with most likely no proof, and him not revealing a weapon of some sort, you would be screwed if you shot him.

Sent from iSnurd
beside use of deadly force requires imminent threat with out him physically taking action to backup that threat it is no imminent.
 
#16 ·
James you may need to review the laws on use of deadly force in an encounter. Maybe sit in on another CCW class. If you watch here we usually have a free one annually. Your point of view on this is sadly dangerous.
 
#17 ·
James said:
You say some perp threatens to shoot you and that ain't a threat?

OK, like I suggested shut your mouth and run like a scared weasel.................................

Take you gun and your smart remarks and shove them up your rectum, I am out of here. :(
James, I have re-read this thread several times, and the only smart remarks i find are yours. I hope you are just "fishing" here, otherwise your attitude and questionable judgement are cause for serious concern on a site that promotes the legal and responsible carry of a firearm.
 
#19 ·
James said:
Quote: " I hope you are just "fishing" here, otherwise your attitude and questionable judgement"

I suggest that you might pull a gun to defend yourself and you say "Questionable judgment" ???

I started packin in 1957. Likely before most of you were even born? I have seen some things. Been there and done that! I practiced fast drawing with a single six. Could draw and fire in 13 hundredths of a second. That is less time than it takes to blink your eye.
You wanna pull a gun on me? All I can say is make it good cause I'll be shooting back. :twisted:

Now I'll likely get banned from this site for saying it, but there ya go. :dunno:
I think this needs to be looked at another way. I'm 5'11" 190lbs, if I came at you, could you stop me?

If you answer yes, double tap and I'm down, then you've only answered my question, but you haven't threatened me. That is the point that I was making. To me, the response by the homeless guy does not rise to the level of an actual threat. Should he be watched...? Sure.
 
#21 ·
James said:
I practiced fast drawing with a single six. Could draw and fire in 13 hundredths of a second.:
You need to get this on video with appropriate witnesses and documentation. Turns out you are the world's fastest shot -- get out there and take credit!

-----------------------

"The record with the shortest time is single shot open freestyle (using a light-weight gun) held by Ernie Hill, of Litchfield Park, Ariz., with a recorded time of .208 seconds."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Munden
 
#23 ·
James said:
Thanks UtahCFP, however that business was when I was 19 years old. Here I am now at 76 and it ain't likely I could do that at this point.

Apparently I have offended the community........ so I will shut up and go somewhere else to play............... The mod can delete all my posts so I won't be a bad influence...........
No need to leave. We are all here to learn together. You are obviously welcome to do what you like, but I'm not offended by anything here.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#24 ·
James said:
Thanks UtahCFP, however that business was when I was 19 years old. Here I am now at 76 and it ain't likely I could do that at this point.

Apparently I have offended the community........ so I will shut up and go somewhere else to play............... The mod can delete all my posts so I won't be a bad influence...........
I for one an not offended. I just think that some of the bravado can be turned down at times, especially on a public forum that some may use to judge the community as a whole.

I was serious when I said that I wouldn't have considered the homeless guy's statement as a threat if this had resulted in an incident that went to trial... at least with the information presented.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
#25 ·
There is another scenario we can play with here.

You are in a McDonald's a little after mid-night. It's been a long day and you are settling down with your chicken McNuggets and a Diet Coke. There are some guys playing some sort of a fantasy card game and there are several other customers in the restaurant as well. You've noticed a couple of people who are unusual -- a homeless guy that is bugging people (haven't heard him beg for anything though), and a guy in drag that just went into a restroom.

Suddenly, a guy pulls a gun and orders the homeless man to the ground. You didn't see the homeless guy make any sort of threatening move, and you can see that his hands are empty. The man with the gun does not identify himself as a police officer.

You take inventory -- you have a sidearm, cell phone, pepper spray, knife, and a flashlight on you.

Seems like the guy with the gun might have been with the gamers -- and those guys are starting to stand up. Other patrons are looking shocked and are starting to panic. Homeless guy is agitated and has started yelling obscenities, but hasn't moved toward the armed man nor has he complied with the armed man's orders.

What are your options? What risks / threats are you observing?
 
#26 ·
UtahCFP said:
There is another scenario we can play with here.

You are in a McDonald's a little after mid-night. It's been a long day and you are settling down with your chicken McNuggets and a Diet Coke. There are some guys playing some sort of a fantasy card game and there are several other customers in the restaurant as well. You've noticed a couple of people who are unusual -- a homeless guy that is bugging people (haven't heard him beg for anything though), and a guy in drag that just went into a restroom.

Suddenly, a guy pulls a gun and orders the homeless man to the ground. You didn't see the homeless guy make any sort of threatening move, and you can see that his hands are empty. The man with the gun does not identify himself as a police officer.

You take inventory -- you have a sidearm, cell phone, pepper spray, knife, and a flashlight on you.

Seems like the guy with the gun might have been with the gamers -- and those guys are starting to stand up. Other patrons are looking shocked and are starting to panic. Homeless guy is agitated and has started yelling obscenities, but hasn't moved toward the armed man nor has he complied with the armed man's orders.

What are your options? What risks / threats are you observing?
With that much info I would probably be moving to cover while trying to be a good witness and dialing 911.
 
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