Confrontation

Discuss issues regarding concealed carry.

Confrontation

Postby Daeyel » Wed 17 May 2017 7:17 am

It's been a while since I've been a regular here, but I've had an issue, and want to double check I'm on firm legal ground.

On Friday nights, some friends and I migrate to McDonalds (Provo) for some all night conversation and nerd-gaming. (Magic)

One of the regulars came dressed in drag to join us, and after leaving the bathroom, a homeless guy started harassing me, asking if the guy in drag needed to be arrested. I mentioned that he was a friend of mine, and the homeless guy said 'Oh, you're one of those fairies too? Where I come from, guys like you end up face down in the river.'

Seeing as I am 6'3, 280, and he is ~5'7, 160, I asked him incredulously if he really thought he was capable of putting me in the river.

'Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows.'

Considering I have around $6,000 worth of cards on me, I carry when I meet up with my friends. I really do not want a confrontation with this guy, but he also rather blatantly threatened to kill me. What are my options going forward with this guy?
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Re: Confrontation

Postby Snurd » Wed 17 May 2017 7:39 am

Daeyel wrote:It's been a while since I've been a regular here, but I've had an issue, and want to double check I'm on firm legal ground.

On Friday nights, some friends and I migrate to McDonalds (Provo) for some all night conversation and nerd-gaming. (Magic)

One of the regulars came dressed in drag to join us, and after leaving the bathroom, a homeless guy started harassing me, asking if the guy in drag needed to be arrested. I mentioned that he was a friend of mine, and the homeless guy said 'Oh, you're one of those fairies too? Where I come from, guys like you end up face down in the river.'

Seeing as I am 6'3, 280, and he is ~5'7, 160, I asked him incredulously if he really thought he was capable of putting me in the river.

'Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows.'

Considering I have around $6,000 worth of cards on me, I carry when I meet up with my friends. I really do not want a confrontation with this guy, but he also rather blatantly threatened to kill me. What are my options going forward with this guy?


I would have called the police right there and tried to get a photo or video of him. Threatening to kill anyone isn't okay. If I were you, I would still call the police and see if that McDonald's has video of the guy.

I would still carry in case he tries anything, but get the police involved.


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Re: Confrontation

Postby Daeyel » Wed 17 May 2017 8:29 am

Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.
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Re: Confrontation

Postby Snurd » Wed 17 May 2017 8:34 am

Daeyel wrote:Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.

At least a picture or something that maybe one of your friends can get. Or video from a security camera.

I would rather have the police involved and know about the situation and possibly get it resolved that way, instead of the guy confronting me again and possibly going downhill. Though he may do it anyway even if the police are involved. That's why it's good to carry.

Pepper spray is also a great way to stop people who attack if they aren't armed. I've had to use it and it worked great. Called the police right after and filed a report of the guy that attacked me. I'm sure he still wishes he hadn't done it. Speaking of that, I need to get a couple more smaller cans.


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Re: Confrontation

Postby gravedancer » Thu 25 May 2017 3:57 pm

Daeyel wrote:Will do if I have any future problems with him.

Thanks for the advice. I think filming him would be a provocative act though. Maybe someone else can do that. It's pretty busy until 1 or 2 am.

Starting an audio recording on your phone and putting it in your pocket when you see the guy isnt aggressive and would at least give you audio coverage
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Re: Confrontation

Postby James » Tue 30 May 2017 2:14 pm

H
Last edited by James on Wed 21 Jun 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confrontation

Postby Snurd » Tue 30 May 2017 2:24 pm

James wrote:He said, "Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows."

That is where I would have drawn my gun and said: "Face down on the ground and keep your hands out." If he complies fine, if not just shoot the SOB. He did just threaten your life right? One is justified in self defense.

He did, however from the story, he showed no weapon. You drawing and shooting would land you in prison. You can only use force required to stop the threat. You can't use lethal force if that force is not presented to you.

You might be able to try to keep him there while police arrive, and maybe they would do something. But with most likely no proof, and him not revealing a weapon of some sort, you would be screwed if you shot him.



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Re: Confrontation

Postby James » Wed 31 May 2017 8:01 pm

d
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Re: Confrontation

Postby DaKnife » Thu 01 Jun 2017 1:26 am

James, no physical attack was made. Your bravado does this community no good. Nobody is saying do not engage in self defense when warranted. What we are saying is that every bullet comes with a squad of very expensive lawyers attached, just drawing the weapon may come with a lawyer attached. If you carry, it is your responsibility to ensure that the firearm is the very last resort.

The individual made a verbal comment, but did not draw or show any firearm, or engage in any physical altercation. There was no deadly threat presented to justify your use of deadly force in return. And drawing your firearm is use of deadly force. You might be able to justify drawing to hold the individual for the threat until the police arrive. But it's a stretch, and by reaching for your firearm you may just escalate the situation to where shots may be required. And you have no justification for shooting based on a verbal statement alone if he chose not to get down on the ground.

Better by far to just ignore such idiots as the idiots they are. And as noted by physical size alone the idiot is very idiotic. Ignore them, certainly keep an eye on them, if they don't drop it call the police, but save your use and even threatened use of deadly force until an actual threat is presented. Words alone are not justification for at a minimum emptying your bank account in legal defense fees and possibly losing your right to keep and bear arms as well as your freedom.
SPOOOOOOON!!!

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Re: Confrontation

Postby Snurd » Thu 01 Jun 2017 6:49 am

James wrote:So, you are going to stand there and let him beat the piss outa you and can't draw your weapon cause he doesn't have one?

He did just threaten to shoot you. Bam, Bam, Bam, that's gunfire. Perhaps he did not show a gun but he surely threatened to shoot you.

I guess you can run like the dickens and see if you can out run him? :dunno:

Where did I say that I would just stand there and let him beat me up?

Look back at the post. The person giving the verbal threat is much smaller than the one being threatened. I'm sure if the guy had landed a punch on Daeyel, said person would probably either get knocked out, or be put to the ground and held there until police arrived.

Other than that, pulling your gun on someone who is much smaller would get you in trouble, not them. Yes, he threatened you, but zero action was taken. Record the incident if you can. Call the police. Don't shoot the guy, or you go to prison.

We are talking about this situation only, not a different situation under different circumstances.


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Re: Confrontation

Postby althor » Thu 01 Jun 2017 11:58 am

James wrote:So, you are going to stand there and let him beat the piss outa you and can't draw your weapon cause he doesn't have one?

He did just threaten to shoot you. Bam, Bam, Bam, that's gunfire. Perhaps he did not show a gun but he surely threatened to shoot you.

I guess you can run like the dickens and see if you can out run him? :dunno:


To me... that reads like bravado and not an actual threat, more like an implied capability. In fact he was directly responding to a question that was asked, even if it was a smartaѕѕ reply. If I were on a jury, I would not have considered this a valid threat.
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Re: Confrontation

Postby James » Fri 02 Jun 2017 6:15 am

:(
Last edited by James on Fri 02 Jun 2017 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confrontation

Postby James » Fri 02 Jun 2017 6:15 am

Y
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Re: Confrontation

Postby Photocell » Fri 02 Jun 2017 8:19 am

Image
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Re: Confrontation

Postby D-FIN » Fri 02 Jun 2017 4:45 pm

Snurd wrote:
James wrote:He said, "Sure. Bam bam bam, 3 holes in you, put you face down in the river, no one knows."

That is where I would have drawn my gun and said: "Face down on the ground and keep your hands out." If he complies fine, if not just shoot the SOB. He did just threaten your life right? One is justified in self defense.

He did, however from the story, he showed no weapon. You drawing and shooting would land you in prison. You can only use force required to stop the threat. You can't use lethal force if that force is not presented to you.

You might be able to try to keep him there while police arrive, and maybe they would do something. But with most likely no proof, and him not revealing a weapon of some sort, you would be screwed if you shot him.



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beside use of deadly force requires imminent threat with out him physically taking action to backup that threat it is no imminent.
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