Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

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Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby manithree » Fri 18 Dec 2015 8:31 am

http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2015/12/17/tds-three-in-custody-after-allegedly-trying-to-rob-a-laundromat/#.VnQlFnUrK5M

The owner went in back to the laundromat and allegedly brandished a firearm at the suspects, telling them to stop, Roden said. The male suspect then came at the owner and the owner fired his weapon into the wall, “reportedly as a warning shot,” Roden said in a news release.

Roden said the male suspect then overtook the owner and they began to fight.
“The brief altercation spilled outside of the business onto the sidewalk,” the news release said. “The suspect then disengaged with the business owner and he and the female, who had also been inside the store, then entered an SUV that was parked in the parking lot.”

A passerby witnessed the fight and stopped to help. The laundromat owner and the witness, who was also reportedly carrying a firearm, “held the suspects at gunpoint until police arrived,” Roden said.


The laundromat owner fired a warning shot, then got in a fight with the attempted robber. Not sure what to think about that, given the lack of details.

But, it's Utah - there was another concealed carrier involved. That's good.

When I heard this on the radio this morning, I thought the laundromat owner was one of the 3 arrested, but apparently, that is not the case.
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby Bill801 » Fri 18 Dec 2015 9:42 am

While the bad guys got hooked is obviously a good thing, I remember a few decades back when I was just learning how to properly handle a firearm. My instructor hammered into my class to never, ever fire a 'warning shot': It leaves you with one less round should it be needed, you can't be sure of where it's going to end up, and in a court setting it could be used against you in the idea of 'If what they were doing wasn't bad enough to shoot them, you had no reason to even have your gun in hand.'

If you're going to press the trigger, shoot to stop the threat.

I'm very glad things turned out well, though.

YMMV
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby manithree » Sat 19 Dec 2015 7:13 pm

Bill801 wrote:My instructor hammered into my class to never, ever fire a 'warning shot':


I agree that's generally the best advice, but since there have been enough instances where a warning shot was enough to stop a perpetrator without any blood being shed or charges against the defender, like some here, I believe there may be instances where it's warranted. This may be one of those, but I don't know without more information.

Maybe the owner wasn't justified in "brandishing" or firing and really should have just called 911, and then his insurance company. The devil's in the details.
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby RustyShackleford » Sun 20 Dec 2015 8:02 am

manithree wrote:
Bill801 wrote:My instructor hammered into my class to never, ever fire a 'warning shot':


I agree that's generally the best advice, but since there have been enough instances where a warning shot was enough to stop a perpetrator without any blood being shed or charges against the defender, like some here, I believe there may be instances where it's warranted. This may be one of those, but I don't know without more information.

Maybe the owner wasn't justified in "brandishing" or firing and really should have just called 911, and then his insurance company. The devil's in the details.

Totally Agree! "The Never Fire a warning shot"; seams is not an absolute such as in this case and others we have heard about where a warning shot was fired and as a result, no loss of life.
Under Utah law, (perp was advancing) he could have shot the perp center mass and had to live with that for the rest of his life or just "been sick to his stomach for a couple of hours" (till the adrenaline wore off.)
IMO: firing a warning shot means you will have one less round to work with if needed is an argument that falls flat. Then why would not that or other instructors warn their students to not ever carry a revolver because it is the equivalent of shooting half your rounds (compared to many) Automatics?

I will agree firing a warning shot when a perp is running away, or to stop their escape would not be smart, but it has proven to be "a less lethal tool" in certain instances to stop a threat, when the alternative is to kill someone.
I'm not going to second guess another armed citizen how he/she chooses to stop a threat, especially when the outcome proved they were 100% right!

Two Local Armed Citizens stop theft. With so many of us in Utah carrying, criminals maybe should move on to somewhere like California...or maybe New York?
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby UtahCFP » Tue 22 Dec 2015 4:06 pm

I've modified my position over the years on things such as warning shots or shooting to wound. Had a discussion with Mitch Velos on the subject, and it really comes down to YOU making decisions about how you apply sufficient force to stop the threat.

Anywho --

The story here makes me wonder if the goof didn't believe the owner would actually use the gun on him. The second person who was also armed may have been more persuasive. My opinion -- if you are going to pull a gun in a situation, make REALLY SURE you are WILLING to use it. You hopefully won't have to pull the trigger, but if the goof believes you *won't* pull the trigger for real, now you'll be in a wrestling match. The goof is less likely to have qualms about the use of deadly force.
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby manithree » Thu 24 Dec 2015 8:08 am

UtahCFP wrote:The story here makes me wonder if the goof didn't believe the owner would actually use the gun on him. The second person who was also armed may have been more persuasive. My opinion -- if you are going to pull a gun in a situation, make REALLY SURE you are WILLING to use it. You hopefully won't have to pull the trigger, but if the goof believes you *won't* pull the trigger for real, now you'll be in a wrestling match. The goof is less likely to have qualms about the use of deadly force.


Before being willing you need to be justified. Defense of property in Utah is not justification for lethal force. Again, there may be details missing, but from what I know so far, it doesn't seem the owner was justified even in presenting his firearm.
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby RustyShackleford » Thu 24 Dec 2015 8:14 am

manithree wrote:
UtahCFP wrote:The story here makes me wonder if the goof didn't believe the owner would actually use the gun on him. The second person who was also armed may have been more persuasive. My opinion -- if you are going to pull a gun in a situation, make REALLY SURE you are WILLING to use it. You hopefully won't have to pull the trigger, but if the goof believes you *won't* pull the trigger for real, now you'll be in a wrestling match. The goof is less likely to have qualms about the use of deadly force.


Before being willing you need to be justified. Defense of property in Utah is not justification for lethal force. Again, there may be details missing, but from what I know so far, it doesn't seem the owner was justified even in presenting his firearm.

You forget about The Dent Puller (metal club) the perp (I guess still) had in his hands.
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Re: Attempted Robbery Foiled in Cedar City

Postby manithree » Thu 24 Dec 2015 6:54 pm

RustyShackleford wrote:You forget about The Dent Puller (metal club) the perp (I guess still) had in his hands.


Even with a "tool" this just sounds like something that would get the owner charged in some states:

The owner went in back to the laundromat and allegedly brandished a firearm at the suspects, telling them to stop, Roden said.


After that is when the burglar came at him and he fired the warning shot, according to the story.

This report raises more questions than it answers. My other big question is, you see two guys fighting and falling out the door of a laundromat, one probably still has a gun, the other may or may not have some sort of blunt instrument. How did he know who was the good guy? Maybe he knew the owner.

I still haven't seen any word on who is getting charged, but the other reports make it sound like the passerby didn't come along until the laundromat owner was detaining the alleged burglars at gunpoint.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3325025-155/businessman-passer-by-pulled-handguns-to-stop
http://ironcountytoday.com/view/full_story/27008343/article-Shots-fired-on-Burger-Alley?instance=lead_story
http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/local/cedar-city/2015/12/17/armed-citizens-foil-robbery/77529300/
http://gephardtdaily.com/local/laundromat-owner-bystander-hold-robbery-suspects-at-gunpoint-for-police/
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