How trauma affects memory recall

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How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Thu 14 Apr 2016 9:22 pm

I just read a fascinating article on the KSL website about a study conducted by researchers at BYU of a new sexual assault victim interview protocol implemented by the West Valley City police department.

While the protocol, study, and article are all about sexual assault, the key elements regarding how trauma affects memory and recall, and how police and prosecutors can best deal with these realities so as to successfully pursue charges against the assailants, I can't help but believe that very similar dynamics must be at play in the aftermath of a self-defense situation.

I would not presume to try to compare the relative level of trauma between being sexual assaulted and having to use a firearm in self defense. Indeed, ideally, attempted sexual assaults would result in the intended victim using a firearm to end the attack before any physical harm is inflicted. But I suspect the levels are both high enough to impose similar effects on memory and recall.

Others, more familiar than I with protections afforded police officers by their unions can provide details about how long officers have after a shooting before they are subjected to any official questioning.

Some fair use excerpts from the article:

KSL wrote:The detective let [the victim] talk without grilling her for information. He listened closely without fixating on the small, specific details she had trouble recalling. He didn't expect her to get through everything in one meeting, and would continue to work with and update her over time.

...

The department credits the protocol with more than tripling its number of successfully prosecuted sexual assault cases, as compared with a sample of cases [throughout Salt Lake County] dating back to 2003.

...

[The BYU researcher] called the access to the police department, its officers and the processes "unprecedented," noting she couldn't find a similar study anywhere in the country to compare it to.

...

Part of that meant understanding how victims' memory is impacted by trauma, influencing the kinds of details they may or may not retain, and the best way to help them recall that information, [the WVC police chief] said.


Memory of a traumatic event does not play like streaming video, [the WVC police chief] explained, meaning earlier police interview tactics seeking a precise timeline of who, what, where and how were often counterproductive.


"We have learned that if we slow things down for a victim, if we recognize the trauma and the process that the victims are going through in their recollections, we more often can be succesful in obtaining better information, support and cooperation, which leads us to more successful outcomes — not just for the prosecution of cases, but for the healing of victims," [the WVC police chief] said.

...

Before the interview protocol was established, 26 percent of officers said they believed that most sexual assault reports by adults were false, according to the survey. At the end of a year, that number was cut to 13 percent.

Now, other departments are seeking training on West Valley's interview protocol, which the department is eager to share, [the WVC police chief]said. The interview principles hold true for victims and witnesses in any number of trauma-related cases, from domestic violence to robbery to homicide.

...

(emphasis added)

I may need to contact the WVC PD chief to see if they are using the same protocol for those who claim self-defense in the wake of a shooting. It will be a while before I have any free time. So if someone else is inclined to do so, please jump in.

In any event, if anyone needed it, another good data point backing up the oft-stated counsel to KYBMS and talk to your criminal defense attorney in the wake of any self-defense incident.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Fri 15 Apr 2016 2:06 pm

Charles, I want to add that school police and officials need to take heed of this policy as well.

I'm not going to blatantly point a finger at a certain well known LDS church owned University, even though I've been involved in a rather long discussion on the subject on another board, well Facebook to be honest about a case at that University.

The fact is that most sexual assaults at institutions of high learning are not reported. There are a variety of reasons, but the main on is that victims are afraid of being blamed for what happened to them. And in many cases they are right and they are expelled from the school and told they can't reapply for 2 years.

This is a gun forum and I'm not going to make a bigger deal or a longer post out of it. I can put together the story I mentioned with pertinent comments and forward them either in this thread or by PM if you're interested. But I think it's enough said for now. Just understand it isn't only city or government police that need to be more enlightened. Campus police and review boards are just as if not more guilty of the issue.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Fri 15 Apr 2016 4:55 pm

Normally, I'd not want to drag a thread off the intended topic. Which in this case I had hoped would be less about sexual assault and more about how a defensive-use-of-firearm situation might effect the memory and recall of a perfectly innocent individual. Keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer.

But since there doesn't seem to be much interest in that aspect yet...

I've seen it reported that a majority of sexual assaults are not reported whether in or out of college. Guilt and shame seem to be common issues, along with concerns about being believed. Toss in youth, but outside the support system of mom and dad's home, and it easy to believe that lots of assaults go unreported.

On the flip side, guilt can also lead to false reports. We have quite literally reached the point where if two college kids have too much to drink, end up in bed, and in the morning neither one can remember what happened, the young man will face rape charges while the young woman is presumed the victim. This case out of Vassar is quite troubling, even if there are other sides to the story.

Church owned schools with honor codes (including BYU) face this issue in spades. Voluntary fornication is grounds for church and school discipline. But being a victim of a crime obviously should not be, and so far as I'm aware, isn't.

This creates an incentive for morning-after regret to turn into false allegations...whether intentional or not. It doesn't take too much Freud to see how one could quickly be honestly convinced that she wasn't a bad girl who willing fornicated; she was forced into something against her will and is a victim.

While being a victim of a sexual assault isn't grounds for school or church discipline, violations of the honor code that might never have come to light save for a need to report being a crime victim might be grounds for school discipline.

This is a difficult area. Predators might well encourage potential victims into situations that violate the honor code knowing that once there a victim might avoid reporting the assault lest the honor code violation (drinking, drugs, in another's bedroom past curfew) come to light. On the flip side, if being a victim of sexual assault is an automatic-get-out-of-honor-code-trouble-free card, we've got yet another incentive to decide something consensual was actually not consensual.

Put another way, when a drunk crashes his car into a tree, should the police ignore the DUI because the driver was injured? Obviously, providing needed medical care must be the first, highest priority. But at some proper point, I think the DUI needs to be dealt with as well.

It can be a seemingly subtle difference, often difficult to see, between not being punished for being a victim of sexual assault, but incurring some discipline for violations of the honor code that came to light only because someone ended up being victimized and reported it.

Sexual assault of the "date rape" kind is a very difficult issue even in the most secular of settings where there are no honor codes or morality requirements. When both parties admit sex took place, but there isn't evidence of physical violence, you are down to "he said, she said". Supporting and believing the victims is crucial...until you are a member of the Duke Lacrosse Team (or perhaps the Vassar rowing team) and have your life ruined because of a false allegation. Bringing up the rare false accusation is hurtful and even offensive if you or your wife or daughter has ever been a victim.

What used to be two drunk kids waking up with some mutual regrets has now become rape with the male presumed guilty.

And yet I worry as much for my young sons given the growing propensity of girls to be sexually aggressive, as I do for my daughter.

Back, somewhat to the topic of the OP, as we learn more of how the brain works and responds to trauma, I suspect we will have to stand on its head all prior understanding of what constitutes "credible" eye witness testimony. Perfect time lines and stories that never change may well become suspect rather than indicative of someone being honest.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Fri 15 Apr 2016 5:35 pm

I apologize for hijacking the thread, but the OP does specifically mention sexual assault situations and that particular case has been churning in my head for the last week or so. The school did, due to the victim being fully honest with the investigators have a real honor code violation to kick her out and tell her she couldn't reapply for two years.

My problem stems from the fact that she was allegedly told that if the male denied it was rape, the investigation would be closed and no further action taken. In this case the young man had a lawyer who advised him not to cooperate with school investigators, and so it wasn't a he said / she said situation.

My concern is that while the girl was kicked out for drug use, the young man is still on campus, ostensibly looking for his next victim. At the very least, rape or not, he also participated in other honor code violations, So, you have a potential predator still stalking the school looking for another young lady who has suffered essential nothing except an allegation which has been ignored and a victim who instead of being comforted and helped, ejected from the school and there by her support group of friends at the school

I see no justice in this "solution" or resolution. But I see a great injustice done. Okay, if you must, remove her from the school rolls....but by all means get her psychological help and support.

Back to the original posts premise. Perhaps some of these same techniques should indeed be applied to shooting situations. But lets get them wide spread throughout the police community in all sensitive subjects. I suppose the first hurdle is to get them to recognize that shooting is a sensitive area. I think it's funny that if a cop shoots someone they are treated with the courtesy you mention, and referred to a psychiatrist or psychologist for counseling. Lets get them to offer the same courtesy to civilians.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Sat 16 Apr 2016 4:15 pm

quychang wrote:I apologize for hijacking the thread, but the OP does specifically mention sexual assault situations and that particular case has been churning in my head for the last week or so.


No worries. As I wrote, seems there is no other interest on the thread so you and I may as well discuss this. :D


But a few full disclosures first.

I am active LDS. I also consider BYU to be a very good school. All rivalries aside, BYU provides a rock solid education with an emphasis on undergrads that is hard to match in any school that also has significant graduate programs. Depending on the specific program of study, BYU provides not just a solid, but a world class education. it does so at a cost that is ridiculously low, being greatly subsidized by the LDS church and its members. Campus is also chock full of intelligent and beautiful young women. It is a highly competitive school in that there are far more who want to attend than can be accommodated.

It was also never on my list of schools to attend precisely because of the honor code.

I've never had any interest in drugs, alcohol, or cheating. Through power of will and the grace of God I managed to save myself for marriage.

But I was never much interested in having a school presume to tell me what time I had to kick a date out of my apartment, or even tell me what kind of apartment I had to live in, much less tell me how long my hair could be or that I needed to shave every day. I believe that my morality, adherence to the Word of Wisdom, and other matters of religious "worthiness" are between me and my Maker and not something a university needs to worry about.

So, I have no personal insights as to the workings of the Honor Code Office.

That said, I have little to no patience with those who take a highly coveted seat at BYU, sign on to the honor code, confirm to their LDS Bishop (or non-LDS religious leader) that they will abide the honor code, and then get on campus and either complain about or violate the honor code.

I didn't want the BYU honor code hanging over my head so I went elsewhere and had other codes of conduct hanging over my head....and I paid a whole lot more money and probably took a lot longer to find a good woman to marry than if I'd gone to BYU.

With that....

quychang wrote:The school did, due to the victim being fully honest with the investigators have a real honor code violation to kick her out and tell her she couldn't reapply for two years.


Having read what is available on the incident from the local media, it appears the honor code office honored the requests from the police not to pursue anything with the victim for several months. But after several months, with the case dragging on and the victim unwilling to discuss anything with anything with the honor code office, it seems the choice is to either let the real violation completely slide, or to tell her she needed to take a break until the honor code violation was far enough in the past to not be an issue.

In the absence of the sexual assault, if the Honor Code Office got credible information that a student had been using drugs, nobody would expect them to ignore that just because the student didn't want to talk to them about it.

I'm also told that some on-campus Bishops of student wards struggle with their relationship with the Honor Code Office. They feel like they need to be able to work with their members to help with the repentance process where sins have been committed and there is a desire to repent, without having a student's academic standing being in question.

Simply put, in many regards BYU is a great, wonderful school. In some regards, it is also a really weird place. And that coming from me. :spit:

quychang wrote:My problem stems from the fact that she was allegedly told that if the male denied it was rape, the investigation would be closed and no further action taken.


I think the key word there is "allegedly". If the male student got a pass on drug use and/or fornication simply by denying rape and/or refusing to talk, while the female student got suspended for two years for declining to discuss the issue and work out something, that would be grossly unjust, assuming similar evidence of violations for both students. No doubt.

I have no way of knowing for sure or guaranteeing that something grossly unjust didn't happen. But my personal experience is that the LDS Church isn't grossly unjust. Church discipline isn't always the same from one person to another for seemingly similar conduct. Believing in revelation and that the Lord looks on the heart, what might be needful for one to repent, might be soul crushing and destructive to another. So I can readily believe that two folks in a similar situation might get seeming different penalties even from the same Bishop. And being that humans are involved, sometimes mistakes are made. But I personally have a hard time believing the LDS church is routinely, grossly unjust. Others probably can easily believe something very different.

Now, BYU isn't the LDS Church. But it is owned by the church and operated by the church. So I'd expect gospel principles to be in operation whenever possible. So my natural bias is to believe that gross injustice is not the norm.

I know that in most of these types of cases the LDS Church (or school, or police department) is often bound by confidentiality requirements (either self-imposed or legal) not to discuss matters publicly. So we are left with only one side of the story, and that often comes from someone who isn't happy with the outcome.

quychang wrote:My concern is that while the girl was kicked out for drug use, the young man is still on campus, ostensibly looking for his next victim. At the very least, rape or not, he also participated in other honor code violations, So, you have a potential predator still stalking the school looking for another young lady who has suffered essential nothing except an allegation which has been ignored and a victim who instead of being comforted and helped, ejected from the school and there by her support group of friends at the school


If a predator is still on campus that would be a grave concern.

OTOH, when schools act too quickly and expel young men on the mere accusation of a woman, we end up with cases like the Duke Lacrosse Team and the male member of Vassar Rowing Team.

If the civil authorities have not even made an arrest, how much action should a school take against someone who either denies any wrong doing or says nothing at all on the advice of his lawyer? Maybe BYU could (and even should) have a policy of "cooperate or we will need to have you leave campus until you can cooperate". Maybe they do.

Any reporting on BYU or the LDS church is tough because we have so few unbiased sources. Obviously LDS Church owned media like KSL and the Deseret News have their bias. The (anti-Mormon) Salt Lake Tribune has its institutional bias and many of its reporters have some very nasty personal biases as well. And many local government officials who might otherwise be seen as unbiased are active members of the LDS church (in Utah county), or very anti-Mormon (in the case of Salt Lake City).

So, in addition to questions of what should a school do with rape accusations, it is tough to find out whether the boy has or hasn't been disciplined for any Honor Code Violations he might have committed.

quychang wrote:I see no justice in this "solution" or resolution. But I see a great injustice done. Okay, if you must, remove her from the school rolls....but by all means get her psychological help and support.


I think the purpose of the Honor Roll Office is to see that certain conduct is maintained on campus. If a person is working with the office to make sure that prohibited conduct is not repeated, I'd expect the odds of being expelled would be reduced. Obviously, the Title IX office would be working with the victim to provide support. But what is the Honor Code Office to do when they have credible evidence of an honor code violation (drug use) and the person won't discuss matters with them? All they can do is dismiss the person from campus. Imagine the uproar if parents who send their kids to BYU because certain conduct isn't supposed to be happening in the campus community is allowed to happen.

quychang wrote:Back to the original posts premise. Perhaps some of these same techniques should indeed be applied to shooting situations. But lets get them wide spread throughout the police community in all sensitive subjects. I suppose the first hurdle is to get them to recognize that shooting is a sensitive area. I think it's funny that if a cop shoots someone they are treated with the courtesy you mention, and referred to a psychiatrist or psychologist for counseling. Lets get them to offer the same courtesy to civilians.


Absolutely. I think the obvious difference is that cops recognize other cops as one of their own and give them the benefit of the doubt. Non-cops don't get that. And at the end of the day, the job of the police should be to uncover evidence and discover the truth.

I think the key to getting this treatment for victims of sexual assault, or for witnesses of traumatic events, or for defensive shooters, is to recognize that this treatment actually does a better job of uncovering the truth (or so I presume from the article). That it is courteous and respectful is good. But I'd have to view those as secondary. I'm not sure a rape kit is a very polite or pleasant thing to have gathered when most victims probably just want to shower, burn their clothes, and try to forget the whole thing. But collecting that kit is often essential to gathering necessary evidence and making a successful prosecution. In like manner, if one form of questioning leads to more reliable, credible evidence gathering, that form should be used (within the bounds of individual rights, of course). That the better method is more polite is a tremendous side benefit, I think.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Sun 17 Apr 2016 10:38 am

Charles, I don't disagree with any of your points, or certainly not enough so to argue. This isn't the only similar case I've read. And they were mostly NOT from private schools, owned and operated by a church. Yes I agree the honor code is onerous, invasive, and probably for the most part unnecessary. You chose a different school, but still, from what you describe, pretty much adhered to that code. Oh perhaps you had a date in your apartment passed curfew, or other innocent activities that in them selves were only violations of the onerous and invasive portions of the code. You didn't actually admit that, and I'm not assuming it happened, just noting that you left that door open. And it's entirely between you and your deity. On that we are 100% in agreement.

I see no signs that in this case, or a number of similar cases around the country, actual help was offered to the victim. Universities seem very much like the police in these matters. The goal is to hush them up, and make them go away, I assume in order to preserve the school's reputation. I have strong reason to suspect that there are serial rapists on many campuses, BYU included but I am not singling them out, other than the case at hand happened there. Girls are reluctant to report the abuses and I fully understand why. You're right, most of them, particularly the ones that are sexually active would rather burn their clothes, take a shower, and move on with their lives. That doesn't make them any less victims.

Finally, I fully understand that BYU is a good school, in no way did I mean to infer otherwise. And I understand that as a privately owned and operated university they are fully within their rights to set codes of conduct. That doesn't change the fact that I believe in this particular case an injustice was done. Frankly the girl involved should also have lawyered up, refused to cooperate with the honor code office, and pressed charges against the young man in question. But she didn't. She walked in, came clean, was completely honest, and trusted her school and frankly her church to do the right thing. She found out why other girls don't report such issues. I sincerely hope that somewhere she finds the help she should have been given. Moves on to a different school. And realizes that sometimes we put our trust in the wrong entities.

I'm going to step away from the issue and share just a little bit about why I'm no longer a member of any church. I'm NOT LDS bashing, because I have similar issues with all churches. It just happens that the bulk of my experience was with the LDS church, and so, I tend to speak mostly from my experience. At a very young age, I chose marriage over a mission. No we did not have to get married, though her extended family was positive that was the reason. We in fact, waited two years to have our only child. After waiting for the mandatory year after a civil marriage, we were sealed in the temple. And I served on the Bishops council representing young adults for a time. I saw both the good, and the bad side of human fallibility, be that person a member of the Bishopric, their children, and regular ward members. I witnessed gross favoritism, and hypocritical actions. No, I'm not going to be more specific even after all these years, nor do I discuss what I know of the LDS temple and rites that are held sacred by my friends, including you. My choice to remove myself from the religious community is highly personal, but I respect promises I have made, whether I personally believe in them or not. I'm appalled by people who are not bound by their word, and throw around in public that which others do not discuss outside their temples, places of worship, or among themselves in private. All of this goes towards my feelings and actions regarding RKBA issues and a church I no longer believe in.

In this particular case, and in my research on the subject, it seems that when the brothers in the honor code office choose to pray over a matter, while it may not be inevitable, but in far too many cases the woman is found culpable. Other institutions do similar things, though not from a basis of religion. Again, I'm going to refrain, out of respect for you and others of your faith, to offer my personal speculation and beliefs as to why this is the case at BYU. Quite frankly I don't really believe they are worse than other institutions, but the fact is, I believe that as such, they should be held to a higher standard, but what happens will happen in the afterlife if there is one. If there is a deity, I believe they will be held accountable for their actions and frankly it's not for me to judge.

I believe from a strictly secular viewpoint that the police should also be held to a higher standard. In the end, they work FOR the people, and it used to be the case that they realized that and conducted themselves accordingly. Sadly that' day has passed.

Enough rambling, I hope I was specific enough to give you an insight into my personal feelings and beliefs, without being specific enough to offend you or make you feel I was on the attack. I AM on the attack against victim blaming, because I would hope that our society had evolved or become more enlightened than that. Obviously I don't believe that hope is the case, however.

As always, I wish you, your family, and the rest of my LDS friends, both here and in my life, nothing but the best.

Mel
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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Tue 19 Apr 2016 9:30 pm

To be clear, while I find the honor code at BYU more invasive than I wanted in my life, I do not dispute the benefits of it in at least helping to maintain a certain atmosphere on campus. And as the father of a daughter about to enter college, I'm thinking a little differently about the Honor Code than when it would have applied to me. :bat: Of course, I'm also thinking a little more favorably on the whole concept of arranged marriages as well. :ROFL:

No doubt the honor code is violated. But in forcing unwanted conduct into the shadows, the culture of campus is different than in places where such conduct is tolerated or even celebrated. In some cases the honor code offers specific protections to students such as not having to tolerate a roommate who thinks bringing a date over to spend the night is a good idea. Morality aside, it may not be safe for a girl whose roommate brings home a drunk boy and then passes out. The boy may decide someone else is available, especially if he sees girls in their usual private-bedroom state of undress. As a guy, such things were of far less concern to me, and I managed to have my own room all but one year of my college career. But at BYU most dorms are shared rooms and most apartments are 2 or 3 bedrooms, 2 to a room for 4 to 6 in an apartment. Odds are good that lacking the honor code restrictions about the opposite sex in rooms, that a lot of students would be subjected to unwanted guests.

Put another way, the faithful members of the LDS church greatly subsidize the cost of tuition at BYU and other church schools. The limited number of seats there are highly coveted for both this reason as well as social reasons of having a large pool of active LDS to date. It is not unreasonable for those active LDS to have some expectation that their donated funds are being used to educate young people who will at least conduct themselves in harmony with church behavioral standards during the relatively short period they are being subsidized.

I know nothing of how often honor code or disciplinary counsels treat a woman more harshly than a man in a similar situation. I do know that men frequently complain that Utah's courts are biased heavily toward women in divorce and child custody cases. I've heard that the church is biased toward the mom and away from the father in cases of unwed pregnancy. Fortunately, I have no personal experience in such matters. Doctrinally, a person who has been to the Temple is held to a higher standard than someone who hasn't, all else being equal and you tend to have a higher number of young, single men who have been to the temple than you do young, unmarried women.

That all said, your continued regard for promises made is an all too rare trait. You are interesting breed.

I hope we get to meet in person and have a drink together before one or the other of us finds out for sure what religious beliefs might be correct. :D

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Tue 19 Apr 2016 10:35 pm

I know that continuing to honor those promises, while totally breaking others by stepping away from the church might seem odd. I do believe that a man's word is his bond, and if your word isn't good, well then everything else comes into question as well. That's also why I choose not to be more specific about my reasoning in leaving religion behind. I tried other religions after being LDS including Presbyterian which I was actually baptized in to. And Catholic, which I attended for many years without actually joining. I've been exposed over the years to a couple of flavors of Pentecostals, as well as Methodist and Baptist. In the end, no one offered what I was looking for and I became who and what I am today.

First I know you weren't denouncing the honor code at BYU, but you did decide against it for yourself. And as I mentioned, I believe you pretty much adhered to it anyway. I alluded to possible "minor" discrepancies but did not accuse you of them, only stated that you had left the door open. While I fully understand your feelings towards your daughter, mine is 33 years old this year. She chose a couple of different paths, including purchasing her own house, and now works full time while attending school. I have a great deal of respect for her judgment and wouldn't dream of attempting to tell her how to live her life. She's doing a fine job on her own and has my full support. I believe that if you've done the job I suspect you've done of raising your daughter, you most likely can trust her to make good decisions in her life as well.

Again, with sensibility to your beliefs, and those of other Christians, I'll simply say that if what I believe is happening at various universities, not only BYU, well then the men and women perpetrating those injustices will get to discuss them with their deity. I don't presume to judge in anything concerning any religion. Yes, from a secular viewpoint, I've looked at what I consider to be injustices, and I have judged that behavior and found it wanting. Regardless of whether the conduct is to protect a schools reputation, an athlete's standing, or any other reason. I believe and will continue to believe it's wrong until such time as evidence is produced to the contrary.

But in the end, what I believe is of little concern. Yes, if opportunities arise for me to vote with my wallet, or my actual political vote, I will do so. I will keep my nose clean, and treat people, men and women according to my own values. I will admit that due to the way I was raised I do lean towards the protection of women.

I will repeat however, that I feel that any "religious school" regardless of the religion supporting it, and also the police from a slightly different perspective, should be held to a higher standard. Both profess to operating at a higher standard, and therefore they should be held to it.

I would greatly enjoy that drink, or possibly a lunch meeting at some point Charles. Over the next month and a half, my focus is concentrating on my bodily condition and raising money for a little drive to Portland, my youngest and also one of my favorite nieces is graduating from Lewis and Clarke Law School. Uncle Mel plans to be in attendance if at all possible. And assuming I get to go, I have friends in Oregon, and family in WA, so I may spend a little time in the area. Once I'm back, we'll have to discuss getting together. I'm sure it will be an interesting meeting and that we won't have a problem finding things to discuss.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Tue 19 Apr 2016 10:50 pm

quychang wrote:I know that continuing to honor those promises, while totally breaking others by stepping away from the church might seem odd.


Not odd, just uncommon. But something to be commended.

quychang wrote:And as I mentioned, I believe you pretty much adhered to it anyway. I alluded to possible "minor" discrepancies but did not accuse you of them, only stated that you had left the door open.


I've always maintained a nocturnal schedule that farmers and the religious consider to be less desirable than a morning schedule. I'm just not a morning person. So yes, plenty of dates that went past curfew and sometimes those dates were in my room with me or I with them. And I gave no worry at all about shaving or even hair cuts during the semester while back east.

I don't think either of these constitute any kind of sin. Late night and privacy may increase the risk of sin, might be inconsiderate or even dangerous to a roommate. But they are not sins of themselves and lacking roommates there isn't the concern for consideration. But both violate the honor code and I don't know that the code makes any differentiation between those matters and actual sins. Since I've never been subject to it, I've never bothered to read it for myself.


quychang wrote:While I fully understand your feelings towards your daughter, mine is 33 years old this year. She chose a couple of different paths, including purchasing her own house, and now works full time while attending school. I have a great deal of respect for her judgment and wouldn't dream of attempting to tell her how to live her life. She's doing a fine job on her own and has my full support. I believe that if you've done the job I suspect you've done of raising your daughter, you most likely can trust her to make good decisions in her life as well.


Truth be told, this one came mostly raised. She'll do great. But dad's are allowed to be a little protective of their daughters. :bat:

quychang wrote:I will repeat however, that I feel that any "religious school" regardless of the religion supporting it, and also the police from a slightly different perspective, should be held to a higher standard. Both profess to operating at a higher standard, and therefore they should be held to it.


Lots of mortal failings among all institutions. But we do hold institutions up to the values they profess. I would hope the double standard for athletes or others is a thing of the past. But I have no delusions about mortal failings.

quychang wrote:I would greatly enjoy that drink, or possibly a lunch meeting at some point Charles. Over the next month and a half, my focus is concentrating on my bodily condition and raising money for a little drive to Portland, my youngest and also one of my favorite nieces is graduating from Lewis and Clarke Law School. Uncle Mel plans to be in attendance if at all possible. And assuming I get to go, I have friends in Oregon, and family in WA, so I may spend a little time in the area. Once I'm back, we'll have to discuss getting together. I'm sure it will be an interesting meeting and that we won't have a problem finding things to discuss.


Best of luck and we'll have to figure out a time and place when you return.

Charles
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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Wed 27 Apr 2016 7:54 pm

Not to reopen an old wound, or to point fingers again, but when I was perusing the SL Trib. article on John Johnson, I stumbled across this article this article on sexual predators at BYU. I promise I took it with a 1/4 cup of salt, knowing their love for all things LDS, but I still found it interesting reading, http://www.sltrib.com/home/3817597-155/sexual-assault-victims-say-abusers-wield.

Please take it entirely in the spirit I mean it, as a discussion point and NOT an indictment of BYU. I simply thought it was pertinent to our discussion.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Wed 27 Apr 2016 9:08 pm

quychang wrote:
Please take it entirely in the spirit I mean it, as a discussion point and NOT an indictment of BYU. I simply thought it was pertinent to our discussion.



No wound to reopen. Just a very interesting topic to discuss. No easy answers.

As I noted in my prior post, the presence of the honor code does give predators leverage to use against victims.

It also highlights how abiding the honor code provides protections. Avoiding a man's apartment when his roommates are gone diminishes the odds of a rape, for example.

The Honor Code also creates an incentive for false allegations...as does the entire moral code of the LDS Church. Fornication is a major sin. Being a victim of rape is not.

A policy of blanket amnesty would certainly increase the incentive for false allegations, while reducing the ability of real perpetrators to use the honor code against their victims. I don't presume to know what the answer is here.

I did, however, read an interesting parallel case (that involves criminal statutes rather than private codes of conduct) about a man using a gun in legal self-defense. However, upon investigation, the police discovered the man had some pot both in his system and in his home and was thus a prohibited person in possession of a gun.

Here is the story on the DesNews site.

It is a lot harder to support a false claim of self-defense shooting than of rape. Yet, I wonder how many employees or readers of the SLTrib would support amnesty for the man.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Wed 27 Apr 2016 11:21 pm

Charles, I actually read that story in the Standard, I assume since it was an official police report that the content didn't vary too much. As an aside, while I did not frequent the bar she was a waitress at, a number of my friends do. The waitress was a well loved member of their community, and they are numb to say the least that the shooting was ruled self defense. The ones I know best are former co workers who feel a grave in justice has been done. And while they are glad that there were charges that stuck, they feel it was far too little.

As mentioned, I didn't know the young lady. They felt she wouldn't attack him violently, the article specifically did not mention if she had THC in her system, though sadly I believe there probably was. And the fact that a baby was present troubles me as well. So. Perhaps in this case justice was served, and I would expect that under the circumstances charging him with a class three felony on charges of gun and drug possession will lead to a hefty sentence, assuming they don't allow him to plead down.

A sad situation which caused great deal of pain for a group of my friends.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Thu 28 Apr 2016 7:21 pm

Certainly a sad situation. I thought I might bring up a parallel situation that would be less fraught with the emotion of sexual assault. What are the odds you actually have as close a connection as you do to the deceased? :dunno:

If the fellow really was attacked and acted purely in self-defense, I believe that a felony conviction and lifetime loss of RKBA over the technicality of being in possession of guns while having some pot is not at all just. And I'm the guy who doesn't want to see pot legalized for recreational use, while you are ok with recreational use being legalized. I presume if you had your way, that a person legally using pot would be under no more legal disability to possess guns than is the person who legally uses alcohol or tobacco.

In any event, probably no easier to discuss this incident dispassionately than the original topic of sexual assaults.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby quychang » Thu 28 Apr 2016 9:10 pm

bagpiper wrote:Certainly a sad situation. I thought I might bring up a parallel situation that would be less fraught with the emotion of sexual assault. What are the odds you actually have as close a connection as you do to the deceased? :dunno:

If the fellow really was attacked and acted purely in self-defense, I believe that a felony conviction and lifetime loss of RKBA over the technicality of being in possession of guns while having some pot is not at all just. And I'm the guy who doesn't want to see pot legalized for recreational use, while you are ok with recreational use being legalized. I presume if you had your way, that a person legally using pot would be under no more legal disability to possess guns than is the person who legally uses alcohol or tobacco.

In any event, probably no easier to discuss this incident dispassionately than the original topic of sexual assaults.

Charles


I think that perhaps we would have to take a hard look at the term "being under the influence" when shootings happen. And regardless of the fact that I do think marijuana should be legalized, I think the use of such should be circumspect around children. Were I a smoker I would not have smoked tobacco in the presence of my children, though my own parents were, and did. And while I wouldn't hesitate to have a drink in their presence I think getting drunk when you have children to care for is a bad idea. Obviously they aren't going to suffer from second hand alcohol. Or even from someone eating a marijuana brownie. But YOUR ability to care for them, may indeed suffer and that needs to be addressed.

The lifelong loss of RKBA rights is due to the federal classification of the drug. Obviously I disagree with that. Were federal possession a misdemeanor, I think UT would have a hard time making it a third degree felony. Or most likely a felony at all. Since alcohol doesn't turn it into a felony, neither should possession or being under the influence of THC. That said, I do think that if a shooting occurs under the influence of substances that affect your judgement it probably ought to be looked at harder and perhaps given a tougher charge. Was she trying to kill him? Or did she have a knife in her hand fixing a meal when an argument broke out and approach him with it still in her hand? THC induces anxiety and paranoia in some people. Would he have felt threatened were he not under the influence? Obviously, we'll never know.

I do agree that lifetime loss of gun rights is a high price to pay for simple possession of something that for the most part I feel is not harmful. And I spoke hastily out of compassion for my friends feelings.

I'll say this. If I even have one of my guns with me in a state where it's legal, I would not carry and partake. While I might perhaps have a single beer with a meal when carrying here at home, if I had any plans to consume more than that, I would not take my gun. If I find myself imbibing at home and I'm carrying, I put the gun away. I don't want to be responsible for doing something stupid when my judgement is not at it's best. I don't want it on my record, or on my conscience. While that may sound like something someone would say, but not practice, I assure, the one time that I was carrying and ordered a second beer, I excused myself and returned to my car, where I disarmed and locked the gun in the trunk. Then I returned and drank my second beer. As it turned out, that was all I drank, and most likely would have been fine, but it's a decision I made before I took my concealed carry class and has been a hard fast rule for me.

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Re: How trauma affects memory recall

Postby bagpiper » Fri 29 Apr 2016 9:57 pm

As a non-drinker, I take a certain joy in letting those in other States know that Utah law doesn't prohibit possession while imbibing; only while drunk. If an adult wants a drink or two with dinner, while armed, that is their business.

Of course, I fully understand and respect those who set a lower limit for themselves when carrying (or driving) than the legal limit of 0.08%. Erring on the side of safety is not a bad thing. When I travel for business I often become the designated driver for non-LDS coworkers. I doubt I've ever had a co worker even get to 0.08% limit. But for guys in professional jobs, they don't risk the careers by driving after drinking. Most all set a limit of zero drinks if they have to drive while on business travel. Some will have a single drink. None will have more than a single drink with a full meal if they have to drive themselves. Just not worth it. They can drink at home if they want to with zero risk.

I've realized we have another area of Utah law that needs to be fixed. The prohibition on being in possession of a gun needs to be amended to have an exemption for your own home, or at least to make clear that a gun stored in some way and not actually on the person or immediately within reach is not considered "possession". Lacking dangerous conduct with a gun, a guy ought to be able to get as plastered as he wants, in his own home, without that being a crime simply because he has some guns in another room.

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