Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

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Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby DaKnife » Mon 26 Sep 2016 3:23 am

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=41616508&nid=148&title=man-fires-gun-at-sandy-gun-show-injuring-2-teens

Comments, thoughts. How many points of failure are there here. I put the majority of the blame on the seller. The buyer should have seen and checked the magazine, but it can be argued that 4 rules aside, he had a reasonable expectation that the weapon not have a loaded magazine in it, and he did point it in a safe direction.

The Seller needs to be cited for negligence, nothing felony level but he needs to be cited he should not have had any bullets in a gun he expected to be handled. It was his negligence that led to the events. And his negligence that gave us all a black eye.

And who checked the gun into the show and zip tied it? Why did they not catch that the magazine had bullets in it?

Fixed the URL, thanks morcey2
Last edited by DaKnife on Tue 27 Sep 2016 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby morcey2 » Mon 26 Sep 2016 8:31 am

The link is mangled. Here's the full version.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=41616508&nid=14 ... ng-2-teens
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby bagpiper » Mon 26 Sep 2016 10:04 am

DaKnife wrote:Comments, thoughts. How many points of failure are there here. I put the majority of the blame on the seller. The buyer should have seen and checked the magazine, but it can be argued that 4 rules aside, he had a reasonable expectation that the weapon not have a loaded magazine in it, and he did point it in a safe direction.

The Seller needs to be cited for negligence, nothing felony level but he needs to be cited he should not have had any bullets in a gun he expected to be handled. It was his negligence that led to the events. And his negligence that gave us all a black eye.

And who checked the gun into the show and zip tied it? Why did they not catch that the magazine had bullets in it?


The negligence is with the guy who pulled the trigger. He isn't some kid relying on an adult to tell him what to do. He is an adult, old enough to buy a gun. He failed to notice a full mag before closing the slide after having to have a zip tie cut??!?

He noticed the magazine after the slide closed, had to have noticed it had rounds in it, but didn't think to clear the chamber?!?!?

The seller should not have cut the zip tie. He should not have had live rounds anywhere near the guns for sale. But he didn't pull the trigger and he didn't hand the gun to some ignorant kid who relied on his word.

Negligence is with the potential buyer who did what he should not have done at a gun show:

1-He asked to have the zip tie removed.
2-He failed to clear the firearm.
3-He dry fired a gun in a crowded environment.
4-He dry fired a gun without benefit a snap cap under the hammer.

For all we know some hostile anti-gunner put the rounds into the magazine precisely to give gun shows a black eye.

I've been in the valley for 20 years now. I think they do these shows at least twice a year. I believe this is the first such incident. So 1 show in 40. Not a bad record. But it doesn't take too many of these incidents to give our enemies the ammo to attack gun shows.

With good reason do gun shows have different, more strict rules about guns than almost anywhere else. It is almost impossible to handle a gun at a gun show without pointing the gun at someone or something you really don't want to shoot. Booth backdrops are not going to even slow a bullet down. And yet guns are going to be handled in that environment.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby DaKnife » Tue 27 Sep 2016 1:29 am

No Charles, the negligence is with the person who brought the loaded weapon to a gun show to sell, where he knew it would be handled. And where those looking at it would see the zip tie and expect it to be unloaded. Yes the buyer could have done a better job of clearing it, but the foremost negligence is on the part of the seller for having any bullets in the gun in the first place.

The buyer did fail to clear it and made the mistake of assuming a zip-tied weapon was cleared before zip tying it. But the onus is on the owner of the weapon to not have a loaded magazine in a weapon he is expecting random strangers (who may not be fully familiar with the functionality of the weapon model) to handle.

No bullets should have been in the gun, end of discussion. This is the same reason the NRA strongly pushes the policy of no ammo in the classroom. The negligence is on the part of the person who brought a loaded weapon to sell.

As to pulling the trigger, are you going to buy a used weapon without testing the action and doing a function test? At least to the best of your knowledge of the firearm you are looking at. Cutting the zip tie was reasonable. Testing the action and pulling the trigger was reasonable. Yes he should have racked the slide again after noticing and dropping the mag, but the onus is still on the idiot who had bullets in the gun in the first place. The seller should know he can't rely on every potential buyer being familiar enough with the weapon type, or guns in general to know to drop the mag when clearing it. Thus it is on the seller to make sure the weapon he has displayed for sale is safe for anyone to handle.

Actually it's the second ND at a show in six months. They hold shows every two to three months in Sandy and another show in between at the Golden Spike Arena in Ogden. And have for decades. Yes the record overall is excellent, but it only takes one fatality to trigger the lawsuit that shuts them down. Yes the rules are different and strict. Thus furthering the point that no bullets should have been anywhere near that gun. Any weapon expecting to be handled (sold or testing holsters etc...) should be cleared and zipped at the entrance and no bullets should be in the weapon or magazine. You still want to carry have another weapon that does not get touched save necessary defensive use.
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby Cinhil » Tue 27 Sep 2016 1:49 am

Having been working this past weekends gun show I must say that this is the third time in eight years I have been at a show when a firearm was discharged. The first was several years ago when a police officer reached into his bag and pulled a gun out engaging his finger in the trigger as he did so firing the round which was in the chamber, which round struck the ground, no injuries, immediate expulsion - as for any other citations or fines in that incident I do not know?
The second incident was at the Davis Conference Center when a dealer, just around the corner fro me, said he shouldn't have to worry about zip tying his gun as it wasn't loaded. He proceeded to prove his point and shot through a table into the floor. Immediately cited, then banned for life, as well as the gun show organization being told they wouldn't be welcome at that arena anymore.
This weekends incident was within 50' of me. The seller should never have cut the tie - his responsibility - he has been banned from the Rocky Mountain Gun Shows for life and had to immediately pack up and leave The buyer actually picked up a loaded magazine and inserted it, racked it and fired it - his responsibility and he has been denied future admission due to his stupidity. Those are the facts, everything else is wrong, newspapers and media often sensationalize and distort the truth, I should know as they have done so with me, all the time with politicians remarks, and in an effort to sell their story or put their own spin on things.
Ultimately it is the actions of the individual which bears their responsibility, not someone elses. Both were in the wrong and both have been appropriately punished, and yes, you could have heard a pin drop in each of these incidents - almost impossible at a gun show!
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby althor » Tue 27 Sep 2016 7:22 am

DaKnife wrote:No Charles, the negligence is with the person who brought the loaded weapon to a gun show to sell, where he knew it would be handled. And where those looking at it would see the zip tie and expect it to be unloaded. Yes the buyer could have done a better job of clearing it, but the foremost negligence is on the part of the seller for having any bullets in the gun in the first place.

The buyer did fail to clear it and made the mistake of assuming a zip-tied weapon was cleared before zip tying it. But the onus is on the owner of the weapon to not have a loaded magazine in a weapon he is expecting random strangers (who may not be fully familiar with the functionality of the weapon model) to handle.

No bullets should have been in the gun, end of discussion. This is the same reason the NRA strongly pushes the policy of no ammo in the classroom. The negligence is on the part of the person who brought a loaded weapon to sell.

As to pulling the trigger, are you going to buy a used weapon without testing the action and doing a function test? At least to the best of your knowledge of the firearm you are looking at. Cutting the zip tie was reasonable. Testing the action and pulling the trigger was reasonable. Yes he should have racked the slide again after noticing and dropping the mag, but the onus is still on the idiot who had bullets in the gun in the first place. The seller should know he can't rely on every potential buyer being familiar enough with the weapon type, or guns in general to know to drop the mag when clearing it. Thus it is on the seller to make sure the weapon he has displayed for sale is safe for anyone to handle.

Actually it's the second ND at a show in six months. They hold shows every two to three months in Sandy and another show in between at the Golden Spike Arena in Ogden. And have for decades. Yes the record overall is excellent, but it only takes one fatality to trigger the lawsuit that shuts them down. Yes the rules are different and strict. Thus furthering the point that no bullets should have been anywhere near that gun. Any weapon expecting to be handled (sold or testing holsters etc...) should be cleared and zipped at the entrance and no bullets should be in the weapon or magazine. You still want to carry have another weapon that does not get touched save necessary defensive use.


But clearly... once the potential buyer pulled out a loaded magazine, he failed miserably. That should have sent up enough red flags that pulling the trigger should have been the last thing he should consider before checking and rechecking and rechecking.

They BOTH failed big time.
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby bagpiper » Tue 27 Sep 2016 1:37 pm

DaKnife wrote:No Charles, the negligence is with the person who brought the loaded weapon to a gun show to sell, where he knew it would be handled. ...


The proximate negligence is clearly with the mature, mentally competent adult who pulled the trigger without clearing the firearm.

The distal negligence is with whomever put live ammo into the firearm. We presume the seller did this.

There is a possibility, however slim, of someone else maliciously loading up a magazine in hopes that someone has an ND and that builds support to shut down gun shows. The kind of people who cut brake lines on heavy equipment or who spike trees (now using ceramic spikes so metal detectors won't give any warning) knowing full well that such actions can very easily lead to serious injury or death of innocent persons, are not above putting live ammo into a gun that everyone presumes is empty.

There might be further negligence on the part of whomever checked and zip tied the gun if the full magazine was in the gun at the time it was zip tied.

Maybe the seller screwed up. Maybe someone crossed from negligence to malicious intent. Maybe whomever zip tied the gun missed something.

But for dang sure, the guy who pulled the trigger had an ND. That is on him.

He knew enough to check the trigger feel before buying. He knew enough to drop the magazine. He should know enough to clear the chamber.

Yes, a rule of "no handling loaded guns" should be sufficient. But it is easy to see why most shows simply ban all loaded guns, even if they don't do much to enforce that for truly concealed firearms. There is always the one idiot who decides he really needs to check the fit of a new holster for the piece he is carrying. At least the show gets to point to a clear violation of their rules as opposed to arguing about whether the gun was or wasn't supposed to be handled.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby bagpiper » Tue 27 Sep 2016 1:39 pm

Cinhil wrote:This weekends incident was within 50' of me. The seller should never have cut the tie - his responsibility - he has been banned from the Rocky Mountain Gun Shows for life and had to immediately pack up and leave The buyer actually picked up a loaded magazine and inserted it, racked it and fired it - his responsibility and he has been denied future admission due to his stupidity.


Well, that makes perfectly clear that the buyer is ultimately to blame then.

I agree, the seller should not have cut the zip tie. But zip ties are not a substitute for basic safety, merely an aid to assist.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby DaKnife » Wed 28 Sep 2016 2:47 am

Thanks for the added info Cinhil, that key information about the magazine was not in the news reports.

Yes, if the buyer inserted a loaded mag into the gun then the negligence does fall on him. I can see the show having a problem with removing the zip tie, but I have a problem buying a used weapon without being able to run a function check on it. So there needs to be a permission to do such so the action can operate without interference, (but there is no need to insert a magazine to do such, and certainly not a loaded mag).
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby Luv10mm » Wed 28 Sep 2016 7:47 am

Oy, some serious goober mistakes there! Glad nobody got hurt.

I haven't been to a gun show in years, and haven't purchased anything at one in probably ten plus. They rarely have been a good venue for me to find things, or get good prices. So, I wouldn't be that sad to see them go. However, if that did happen, it would be a serious ding to public perception and certainly could affect RKBA down the road.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby bagpiper » Wed 28 Sep 2016 12:36 pm

Luv10mm wrote:...I haven't been to a gun show in years, and haven't purchased anything at one in probably ten plus. They rarely have been a good venue for me to find things, or get good prices. So, I wouldn't be that sad to see them go. However, if that did happen, it would be a serious ding to public perception and certainly could affect RKBA down the road.
....


It would most definitely affect RKBA.

Our opponents are not stupid. Not our real opponents. The useful idiots are exactly that. But our real opponents are not stupid. Despite their public lies, they know gun shows are not an terribly important venue for firearms transactions. That isn't why they want to kill gun shows. But their real reason wouldn't play well with the public so they stick to lies about gun sales to violent criminals who can't pass a background check.

Gun shows are a gathering place that remind those in the RKBA community that they are not alone, not unique, not odd. They are a venue for recruiting new members to the RKBA community. There is an excitement at many gun shows that cannot be replicated in very many other places.

In a sense, gun shows are like talk radio and the internet, but live action.

As analogy that the LDS will understand, I don't much care to attend General Conference in the Conference Center. I have to drive downtown, find parking, and I end up watching conference on a big screen TV anyway because no way I can get a good enough seat to actually see the speaker very well. Heaven help me if I need a bathroom break half way through. Then I have to fight traffic to get out of town and get home. Frankly, I have a much better seat, far more comfortable, in my own living room. And with a DVR, I can pause if needed and not miss a thing.

So why have a Conference Center that can hold so many people? Why is it important to have a gathering spot?

For some, being physically present is important. But even for those of us who have little use of attending in person (Conference or gun shows), there is something important to the community about a tangible gathering. Even sitting at home, I know there are 20,000 who are in the conference center. A couple thousand more in the Tabernacle. Hundreds of thousands more gathered in Stake centers throughout the world. I continue to physically attend the Priesthood Session at my Stake Center rather than watch at home. The inconvenience is dramatically less than getting downtown; and the gathering with others of like mind is empowering.

Gun shows are important. That is exactly why our opponents and enemies attack them.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby manithree » Wed 28 Sep 2016 2:27 pm

bagpiper wrote:Gun shows are important. That is exactly why our opponents and enemies attack them.


I guess that's possible, too. I just assumed that "Gun show loophole" was a soundbite (even though it's a lie) that was a lot easier to demonize to the useful idiots than "private sale." "Gun show" sounds scarier, and more unsophisticated/redneck.
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby steelhawk » Wed 28 Sep 2016 6:48 pm

I was at a gun show a few years ago when a Kaboom echoed through the South Town Expo Center. I heard a few comments from those around me questioning the intelligence of the person, etc.

I walked around later where it came from and asked a vendor what happened. Turns out, it was a tire on an overloaded two-wheeled cart that blew. I had actually seen a cart go by me a minute or so before the boom and noticed the tires were bulging from whatever it was carrying. Just glad it didn't blow right in front of me.
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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby bagpiper » Thu 29 Sep 2016 4:52 pm

manithree wrote:I guess that's possible, too. I just assumed that "Gun show loophole" was a soundbite (even though it's a lie) that was a lot easier to demonize to the useful idiots than "private sale." "Gun show" sounds scarier, and more unsophisticated/redneck.


Ending private sales is a key element of what the gun grabbers want. End private sales and within a generation the majority of otherwise legal guns that are currently untraceable end up back in the system with recent 4473s attached. Impose universal registration as part of ending private sales and very quickly all legal guns are registered and all unregistered guns are illegal. This thought makes the gun grabbers salivate. It should terrify us.

Attacking gun shows is more subtle. It is about eroding the gun culture, about making gun owners feel more isolated and less energized, and making it that much more difficult to recruit new members to the culture. Notice that gun shows are about more than just guns. They include various prepper stuff (food storage, communications, emergency medicine, and other emergency preparedness). They might include financial preparedness such as gold sales. You often see booths for the Libertarians or other third parties.

Someone once, somewhat derisively described the 2nd amendment as a great funnel flying through socio-political space. It picked up lots of otherwise disparate and small groups and brought them together in a very annoying political majority. Hunters, collectors, competitive sport shooters, self-defense, manufacturers, retailers, gun smiths, anti-government and/or militia types, preppers, traditional and civil libertarians, and other political misfits all find common cause within the 2nd amendment. And gun shows are one of the great gathering places.

Eliminating those gathering places would damage the culture and strength of the RKBA community.

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Re: Negligent Discharge at Sandy Gun Show

Postby dewittdj » Fri 30 Sep 2016 8:06 pm

Adding my 2 cents...

The primary fault is with the individual who pulled the trigger. It always is. That's why the most common thing said after a negligent discharge is "I didn't know it was loaded!?!?!"

That being said, the seller has a duty to ensure that the firearm is unloaded prior to passing it to the buyer or interested party. The buyer or interested party is responsible for checking it immediately upon taking possession of it, even if he saw the seller clear it before handing it to him/her.

This is taught religiously at all NRA Range Safety Officer, Chief Range Safety Officer, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading, etc. courses that are taught in the Trapper Trails Council. You NEVER assume the firearm is unloaded without doing the following:
1. Remove the ammunition source (magazine, clip, tube, slide, spring, plunger, etc.) and the ammunition.
2. Lock the action open.
3. Visually and physically check to ensure the firearm chamber is clear and unloaded.
4. If on hand and/or available, then place a flag safety in the chamber.

Whether you are a three rule guy or gal or a 4 rule guy or gal, KEEP YOUR BOOGER PICKER OFF OF THE BANG SWITCH UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO SHOOT. You are ready to shoot when your sights are on target, your backstop is safe and secure, and the firearm is loaded.

If you insist on dry firing in a crowded room, then make darn sure you followed the 4 steps above and are aiming at a safe and secure backstop (something that will safely trap a bullet coming from your unloaded gun). :disgusted:
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