Laws on Knives in Utah ???

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Laws on Knives in Utah ???

Postby UTOC-45-44 » Tue 11 Sep 2007 11:45 am

What are the Specifics when it comes to Knives etc to carry on a Person. In the State of Utah we have a Concealed Firearms Permit but does this "Permit" also cover Knives of Greater lengths than a "pocket-knife"???

Anyone knows anything???
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concealed permit

Postby ebrinton » Tue 11 Sep 2007 1:27 pm

I may be totally wrong here, but this is what I remember from my concealed carry class. Even thought it's a concealed firearm permit, it only applies to handguns (not rifles, shotguns, knives, nunchuks, etc.). Furthermore, you don't even have to have the handguns concealed. There is also no limit on the number of handguns you can have on your person. So it should really be called a "permit to carry handguns."
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Postby apollosmith » Tue 11 Sep 2007 4:18 pm

The CFP specifically allows concealed dangerous weapons that are not guns. The law differentiates "concealed dangerous weapons" that are guns (1b) and those that are not (1a) - http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-504

If you read this directly, it indicates that NOBODY can carry a concealed dangerous weapon that is a gun or not a gun. And this is true, until you read the exemptions - http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-523
Notice that the CFP exemption (item 2) specifically applies to both 1a (knives, etc.) and 1b (guns) of the previous statute.
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Postby UTOC-45-44 » Wed 12 Sep 2007 10:31 am

apollosmith wrote:The CFP specifically allows concealed dangerous weapons that are not guns. The law differentiates "concealed dangerous weapons" that are guns (1b) and those that are not (1a) - http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-504

If you read this directly, it indicates that NOBODY can carry a concealed dangerous weapon that is a gun or not a gun. And this is true, until you read the exemptions - http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-523
Notice that the CFP exemption (item 2) specifically applies to both 1a (knives, etc.) and 1b (guns) of the previous statute.


Thanks.

From what I then understand is that I CAN carry a knife other than a "pocket" knife on my hip. I don't then know if Utah has a "length" law. Do we ???

Anyone know ???
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Knife Law

Postby Cinhil » Wed 12 Sep 2007 11:44 am

Technically with a concealed permit you may even carry a sword without worry--but if stopped by an officer you should disclose. Packing.org had a good section on this but that sight died. Go to BCI websight, I believe it is all there, or laid out in the statute.
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Postby apollosmith » Wed 12 Sep 2007 4:20 pm

UTOC-45-44 wrote:Thanks.

From what I then understand is that I CAN carry a knife other than a "pocket" knife on my hip. I don't then know if Utah has a "length" law. Do we ???

Anyone know ???


There's nothing in Utah law about blade length. Well, kinda. The length of the blade could be used in determining if it is a 'dangerous' weapon - http://utahshootingsports.com/utahlaws.htm#76-10-501 (see item #3). If it IS a dangerous weapon, it must be visible if you do not have a CFP.

In Utah, you can pretty much carry anything you want as long as it is visible, not sawed off, and you're not in a secure area or a school. If you have a CFP, the same applies, except you can now carry in schools and can have it concealed.

At least that's how I understand it. Just remember that federal laws may come into play for certain weapon types.
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Postby Hunter » Wed 12 Sep 2007 8:10 pm

If you are carrying a knife for defense then you do need a CCW. You can still carry a pocket knife if it's main purpose is for it be used as a tool.
Last edited by Hunter on Thu 13 Sep 2007 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby apollosmith » Wed 12 Sep 2007 9:14 pm

Hunter wrote:If you are carrying a knife for defense then you do need a CCW. You can still carry a knife if it's main purpose is for it be used as a tool.


Where does it indicate this in the law? I'm not doubting you, but I would like to know where this is documented because I don't see it anywhere. If this is true, wouldn't open carry also be illegal?
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Knife Carry

Postby Cinhil » Wed 12 Sep 2007 10:11 pm

Knives like guns, hammers, needles, pliers, screwdrivers etc. ad infinitum are all tools. We as human beings have that one distinction which places us above all animals, that is that we create tools which, in essence, we create in order to survive. This is true whether we are building a raft, a house or hunting. Thus the simple fact we are carrying at all means we are carrying a tool which enables us to accomplish tasks otherwise too difficult for us to do without them. I sure am glad that God provided us hands and brains so we could responsibly create and use tools to the betterment of self and the human family. :)
What part of "Shall not be infringed" is not being abused today!

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Postby Hunter » Thu 13 Sep 2007 6:30 am

How it has been explained to me and the general standard we use at our PD to decide if the line has been crossed is the stated purpose of the item, the practical purpose they are claiming the item is used for, and the over all circumstances surrounding the incident.

Practially speaking, there generally isn't much reason to carry, and then claim that five inch concealed sheath knife is a tool and not meant for personal defense. However, a hunting or fishing trip could be a good reason to have one on you, but again this would depend on the stated and practical purpose for the knife, and the over all circumstances surrounding the incident.

Also many a person has been arrested for Carrying a Concealed Weapon when they stated the concealed screw driver, ice pick, box cutter, awl, or other such item they were carrying was meant for personal defense, and they didn't have a CCW.

It comes back to the the part of 76-1-601 which defines a "Dangerous Weapon" (5) "Dangerous weapon" means:
(a) any item capable of causing death or serious bodily injury; or
(b) a facsimile or representation of the item; and:
(i) the actor's use or apparent intended use of the item leads the victim to reasonably believe the item is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury;

Most everyone carrys some type of concealed item on them that is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. For example, those some what sharp metal serrated pieces in your pocket, also known as "keys", can cut, and if done so in the right place, can cause death or serious bodily injury. That five inch long tool with a sharp point at the end, also known as a "pen" or "penicl", can cause death or serious bodily injury if it is used to stab someone in the right place or enough times.

Again it cames back to to what and how you are carrying, and the practical or stated purpose for the item you are carrying in the given circumstances surrounding the incident you are involved in.

Hope this makes sense and answers more questions than it casues.
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Postby apollosmith » Thu 13 Sep 2007 7:26 am

Hunter wrote:It comes back to the the part of 76-1-601 which defines a "Dangerous Weapon" (5) "Dangerous weapon" means:
(a) any item capable of causing death or serious bodily injury; or
(b) a facsimile or representation of the item; and:
(i) the actor's use or apparent intended use of the item leads the victim to reasonably believe the item is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury;

Hope this makes sense and answers more questions than it casues.


That does clarify a bit. The thing is, there is no place in Utah law that says you can't carry a dangerous weapon that is NOT concealed. In other words, I can legally carry a sword around town or a 14" hunting knife or an unloaded pistol or nunchuks, etc. without any legal ramifications. Now if I conceal this weapon or carry it in schools or use it to threaten someone, etc., I'm breaking the law. But there's no place that says I can't carry it in public in a non-concealed way. Or at least I haven't found anything stating this.
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Postby Hunter » Thu 13 Sep 2007 7:37 am

apollosmith wrote:
Hunter wrote:It comes back to the the part of 76-1-601 which defines a "Dangerous Weapon" (5) "Dangerous weapon" means:
(a) any item capable of causing death or serious bodily injury; or
(b) a facsimile or representation of the item; and:
(i) the actor's use or apparent intended use of the item leads the victim to reasonably believe the item is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury;

Hope this makes sense and answers more questions than it casues.


That does clarify a bit. The thing is, there is no place in Utah law that says you can't carry a dangerous weapon that is NOT concealed. In other words, I can legally carry a sword around town or a 14" hunting knife or an unloaded pistol or nunchuks, etc. without any legal ramifications. Now if I conceal this weapon or carry it in schools or use it to threaten someone, etc., I'm breaking the law. But there's no place that says I can't carry it in public in a non-concealed way. Or at least I haven't found anything stating this.


Depending on the circumstances involved, you may not be arrested for a Weapons Violation, but you could still be arrested for Disorderly Conduct.

76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
(2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.
(3) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.
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Postby apollosmith » Thu 13 Sep 2007 9:45 am

Absolutely, Hunter. This one applies about anywhere. It's more than just carrying a weapon, but how you carry it and your demeanor, etc. that can influence this.

Unfortunately, disorderly conduct can sometimes be used as an excuse to infringe upon our rights to carry. I know a man was arrested in Logan for open carrying in Smith's and they charged him with disorderly conduct just for legally carrying and that seems a bit wrong to me.
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Re: Knife Law

Postby UTOC-45-44 » Thu 27 Sep 2007 11:09 am

Cinhil wrote:Technically with a concealed permit you may even carry a sword without worry--but if stopped by an officer you should disclose. Packing.org had a good section on this but that sight died. Go to BCI websight, I believe it is all there, or laid out in the statute.



Utah Code -- Title 76

76-10-501. Definitions.


9) (a) "Firearm" means a pistol, revolver, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, rifle or sawed-off rifle, or any device that could be used as a dangerous weapon from which is expelled a projectile by action of an explosive.

The Utah Permit is a CONCEALED FIREARMS PERMIT, so therefore we are not able to conceal any other weapon. Therefore if we did we could be arrested for concealing a Dangerous Weapon since that is not within the statue of our Concealed Firearms Permit
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Re: Knife Law

Postby Jeff Johnson » Thu 27 Sep 2007 6:30 pm

UTOC-45-44 wrote:...
The Utah Permit is a CONCEALED FIREARMS PERMIT, so therefore we are not able to conceal any other weapon. Therefore if we did we could be arrested for concealing a Dangerous Weapon since that is not within the statue of our Concealed Firearms Permit

Actually, not so. It is a common misconception that since it is called a Concealed Firearm Permit, that it only pertains to firearms.

Check the letter you received from BCI when you were issued your permit. It spells out what sections of law we are exempt from with a permit. In that letter (at least it was in mine), you will find that it says the following:
...
A concealed firearm permit only exempts you from Subsection 76-10-504(1)(a),1(b), Utah code Annotated, "Carrying Concealed Firearms". Section 76-10-505, Utah code Annotated, carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle or on the street" and section 76-10-505.5, Utah code Annotated, possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises."
...

From what I can tell, they base the above on two sections of code:
  • U.C.A. 76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
  • U.C.A. 76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
Let's at least examine that first section and the referenced sections showing exemptions:

In U.C.A. 76-10-523, you will find the following paragraph:
...
(2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
...

Therefore, we are exempt from the following subsections:
  • U.C.A. 76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
  • U.C.A. 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
  • U.C.A. 76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
That first one contains the following:
76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
...

Note that (1)(a) regulates concealed dangerous weapons that are not firearms. We CFP-holders are exempt from that section and so are perfectly legal to carry non-firearm dangerous weapons concealed (assuming that they are not items that are separately banned, like sawed-off shotguns are).

For a handy resource for links to Utah and Federal laws online, visit this thread: Handy links to Utah and Federal gun laws online
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