knives at schools

This is an area to discuss general issues regarding knives, swords, and other non-firearm weapons.

knives at schools

Postby fx17 » Fri 21 Mar 2014 9:33 am

The devil's advocate in me is just wondering a couple things. Please correct me If I'm wrong.

Let's say I don't have a CFP. Can I take a swiss army knife to a school? I don't think that would be considered a "Dangerous Weapon" under Utah law, would it? Its clearly a tool, especially if you look at its intended use, and It's character.

Now, lets suppose my 12 year old son takes a swiss army knife to school. Is it still not classified as a "Dangerous Weapon"? If not, then wouldn't he legally be allowed to keep it at school? Wouldn't Utah's Knife Preemption law prohibit the school from banning knives that are not considered "Dangerous Weapons", and wouldn't it prohibit the school from making their on definitions of "Dangerous Weapons"?

Or, are the other laws about kids having a knife at school, even if its not a "Dangerous Weapon"?

just curious.
fx17
Novice
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue 22 Nov 2011 11:27 am

Re: knives at schools

Postby bagpiper » Fri 21 Mar 2014 10:55 am

fx17 wrote:Let's say I don't have a CFP. Can I take a swiss army knife to a school? I don't think that would be considered a "Dangerous Weapon" under Utah law, would it? Its clearly a tool, especially if you look at its intended use, and It's character.


Your swiss army knife is not generally going to be considered a "weapon" and so is not going to be subject to concealed weapon laws or laws governing weapons at schools. If you were to use it as a weapon to assault someone, then what might otherwise be simple assault could be elevated to aggravated assault because you used a weapon. That could be true even if you used a rock.


fx17 wrote:Now, lets suppose my 12 year old son takes a swiss army knife to school. Is it still not classified as a "Dangerous Weapon"? If not, then wouldn't he legally be allowed to keep it at school? Wouldn't Utah's Knife Preemption law prohibit the school from banning knives that are not considered "Dangerous Weapons", and wouldn't it prohibit the school from making their on definitions of "Dangerous Weapons"?


Utah "Knife Preemption" is contained in two sections of code: 10-8-47.5 and 17-30-332. These sections of code deal with municipal and county powers, respectively.

In both cases, the limitation is on "municipalities" (ie "cities") or "counties". Also the limitation is on "criminal penalties."

Near as I can tell, these sections do NOT limit the ability of school districts or individual schools to enact policies on knives, including policies dealing with school imposed (ie "non criminal") discipline.

This annoys me greatly. In my day, a boy turned 8, joined cub scouts, and got his first pocket knife. From that day forward he was likely to carry a knife in his pocket everywhere he went. Some kids needed a little reminding by their 3rd grade teachers that if they played with the knife during school it would impounded like any other toy. But that quickly passed and for those who chose to carry a knife beyond the initial "toy" stage, it quickly became a necessity. It was common for males (including students, teachers, staff, and administrators) to carry a pocket/pen knife with them everywhere they went including school, church, etc. To be without a knife was to be nearly naked; even a simple, single bladed pen knife is a very valuable and oft-used tool. A decent little swiss army knife is invaluable. And when the multi-tools came out with usable pliers in addition to a couple of screwdrivers and blades we had achieved near perfection. Up until 9/11 my pocketknife, folding buck knife, or multi-tool went into the little basket with my car keys when I needed to clear airport security and then went right back onto my belt or into my pocket.

These days, the mere possession of a pen or pocket knife is sufficient to get kids expelled from every school of which I am aware including regular neighborhood schools, charter schools, and even most private schools. It is maddening to me. But I can find nothing in State code to prevent such policies. I'd love to be corrected.

Of course, such rules do not apply to parents, though I wonder if they have tried to enforce them against teachers.

I'd love to see some limitations placed on schools when it comes to obvious utility items like a swiss army knife or multi-tool. Maybe we could limit blade size to less than 3 inches and only non-lockable blades. But I'd like to see kids able to carry a pocket knife to school again.

Charles
bagpiper
Sniper
 
Posts: 3107
Joined: Tue 09 Nov 2010 8:31 pm

Re: knives at schools

Postby fx17 » Fri 21 Mar 2014 11:44 am

I'm with you 100% bagpiper. I'm only in my 30's but when I was in Jr High and High School, I always carried my SAK. At 2 different high schools, I had a teacher see it, and start telling me I had a weapon. I said "No, its a SAK, and its a tool. However this pencil could be used to kill someone, by driving it through their eye, and into their brain. Do you want to ban pencils?" The funny part is that later on, both of those same teachers asked to use my SAK, when they needed a screwdriver!
fx17
Novice
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue 22 Nov 2011 11:27 am

Re: knives at schools

Postby quychang » Fri 21 Mar 2014 2:23 pm

Of course, being older than Charles (or dirt, for that matter) I also carried knives at school, work, church, etc. And contrary to popular belief the earliest of them were NOT chipped flint or obsidian. And I carried a small multi tool thru out my years of working in call centers, in blatant disregard for the rules. And lent that same multi tool to both supervisors and IT guys on many occasions.

I'm afraid that as much as I think they've gone bonkers with the zero weapons policies at school, I do support this one. Are there kids that are responsible and should be able to carry? Absolutely. And there most probably are kids that do. No one searches them, at least not without pretty substantial cause. Just like us, concealed is concealed. If the knife stays pocketed, no one will know. It's the kids that are "too cool, for school" and have to flash those knives that were the beginning of the problem, that and the rise in gang related activities in schools. Big city, inner city schools were most likely the straw that broke the camels back, and having to install metal detectors to keep guns out of school. For more rural populations it was just easier to do a blanket ban than to spend the money for detectors.

Anyway that's my opinion. The lengths it's been carried to are beyond silly, but actual weapons probably have no valid place in schools.

Mel
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT

Re: knives at schools

Postby Paul » Fri 21 Mar 2014 2:27 pm

A knife is the most important tool I carry. Seriously. It gets used dozens of times each and every day. I don't go anywhere without a knife.
What I really need is some training to learn how to use it as a weapon if needed.
-Paul
http://www.myfavoritegunstore.com
http://www.cachevalleycabinetsandtops.com
NRA Life Member
Utah CFP Instructor
Utah Hunters Education Instructor
NRA Rifle and Pistol Instructor and RSO
Front Sight President (ask me about memberships)
User avatar
Paul
Forum Owner
 
Posts: 3791
Joined: Thu 27 Sep 2007 6:09 am
Location: Richmond, UT

Re: knives at schools

Postby bagpiper » Fri 21 Mar 2014 4:07 pm

quychang wrote:Of course, being older than Charles (or dirt, for that matter) I also carried knives at school, work, church, etc. And contrary to popular belief the earliest of them were NOT chipped flint or obsidian.


Bone? :lol3:

quychang wrote:I'm afraid that as much as I think they've gone bonkers with the zero weapons policies at school, I do support this one. Are there kids that are responsible and should be able to carry? Absolutely. And there most probably are kids that do. No one searches them, at least not without pretty substantial cause. Just like us, concealed is concealed.

Anyway that's my opinion. The lengths it's been carried to are beyond silly, but actual weapons probably have no valid place in schools.


Obviously, children and even adolescents should not be carrying "weapons" to school. But inasmuch as a pocket/pen knife or multi-tool is not a weapon any more than is a pencil, or belt, or most other items, they should not be included in the ban on "weapons."

Now, a 14" Bowie, or a butterfly knife (popular when I was in school), or even a Tijuana special stiletto switch blade, none of which of much day-to-day utility while attending school? Sure, ban 'em.

On second thought, I know those who used to carry their .22LR or even larger rifle to school with them on a regular basis. The chance to shoot a rabbit on the way home was often the difference between a nice dinner, and something a lot less filling. They'd leave the gun in their locker, or drop it off in the office for safekeeping for the day. Even in my day, in a less rural area (and more prosperous time), the senior project for the kids taking the "trades" classes was to build a nice ceremonial cannon in metal shop and the caisson for it in wood shop. Then the shop teacher would bring in the correct sized ball bearings to use as projectiles, and with some oxi-acetalyne from the torches as propellent, they'd test fire them.

I know this is a bit off topic for the thread so I won't pursue it further, but I'm thinking maybe one of the problems with schools is they no longer focus on bad behavior or even bad people, but instead turn their attention way too much to certain, inanimate objects that can be used for bad purposes. In my (and your) day, kids got expelled for causing problems, not for cleaning their nails or slicing an apple with a knife at school.

Paul wrote:What I really need is some training to learn how to use it as a weapon if needed.

+1

Charles
bagpiper
Sniper
 
Posts: 3107
Joined: Tue 09 Nov 2010 8:31 pm

Re: knives at schools

Postby quychang » Fri 21 Mar 2014 6:43 pm

We could make cannons in high school, but even more interesting was a lot of us built crossbows in junior high. Some how I doubt either project is still on the approved list. The crossbows were built from kits and had pretty serious composite metal bows with about 80-100 lbs pull as I remember.

And you're right, behavior, not inanimate objects were the focus of discipline efforts.

But then, we all turned out to be gun hoarding terrorists didn't we?

Mel

Sent from my KFTHWI using Tapatalk HD
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT


Return to Knives, Swords, etc.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron