Where can I carry my gun???

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Tue 20 May 2014 11:45 am

First, a little background. I already posted in the "Introduce Yourself" area, but I think it got deleted in the website update thingy. Anyway, I'm 18 years old and recently acquired a firearm of the concealable variety in a private transaction. I have a couple questions before I go around with it strapped to my side.

1) Can I open carry a pistol in Utah as an 18 year old?

2) Assuming that answer to 1 is yes, where would I be prohibited? I already understand no federal buildings (courthouses, post office, federal banks, etc)

3) Also assuming a yes to question 1, I must always keep the gun two stages away from firing yes? Rack slide, fire.

I think that's all for now. Thanks!
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Tue 20 May 2014 3:02 pm

UCChris wrote:
First, a little background. I already posted in the "Introduce Yourself" area, but I think it got deleted in the website update thingy. Anyway, I'm 18 years old and recently acquired a firearm of the concealable variety in a private transaction. I have a couple questions before I go around with it strapped to my side.

1) Can I open carry a pistol in Utah as an 18 year old?


First, welcome and congrats. And thanks for looking for info before carrying. I highly suggest you go ahead and take the concealed carry course even though you can't yet get a Utah permit. The course is primarily about Utah law relative to carrying and the use of deadly force. We have several instructors on the forum and I can make introductions to a couple of others not on the forum if desired.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, and if something goes wrong, it will be you in jail, not me. :D But, that said, here is my best understanding...

Assuming you are not a "prohibited person" then yes as long as you adhere to other legal requirements. Prohibited person (effectively) means no felonies, no domestic violence misdemeanors, not a drug addict, not under the influence of or not in possession of any illicit drugs nor impaired by any drugs (legal or otherwise), never been adjudicated mentally incompetent. Some of these prohibitions are explicit in making you prohibited, others are not a lifetime ban, but effective in the moment. IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.

UCChris wrote:2) Assuming that answer to 1 is yes, where would I be prohibited? I already understand no federal buildings (courthouses, post office, federal banks, etc)


In addition to federal facilities including National Park visitor centers, federal courthouses, post offices, military reservations, etc (and banks are not federal facilities, but I personally recommend against OCing into them unless you are personally well known) the list of off limit locations in Utah is fairly short:

Court houses (not technically off limits per law, but off limits per judicial "contempt of court" power. Same effective result for us, no guns).

Jails and prison.

The secure area of mental hospitals.

The secure area of the airport. Baggage claim and ticketing are ok. Do not attempt to go through the metal detectors.

Any private residence or house of worship that "gives notice" in one of several ways including signage or personal communication. Churches may also give notice via public notice in the paper every year and then being listed on the BCI webpage. All LDS houses of worship and a couple of other churches have given notice one way or another. Several churches have not given notice, though most prefer concealed carry rather than OC.

(Holding a permit to carry does not exempt you from the above.)

Buses and trains.

Under State law, the grounds and buildings of any preschool, K-12 school, or post-secondary school (includes colleges, universities, tech schools, and vocational schools including the hair salon in the strip mall that gives low cost hair cuts). If you are committing some other crime within 1000' of any of these, the presence of your otherwise legal gun becomes another crime.

You will need to double check on what limits there are on carrying a gun while hunting, if the gun can't be used on that hunt (such as when bow or black powder hunting).

(Holding any valid permit exempts you from the above as well as from the ban on concealed carry and the ban on carrying fully loaded.)

Under federal law, the grounds and buildings of any K-12 school, plus 1000' out from the edge of school property in all directions. In an urban area it is all but impossible not to violate this law unless you have a Utah permit to carry or keep the gun in your car.

(Only a permit issued by the State in which the school resides will exempt you from this law.)




UCChris wrote:3) Also assuming a yes to question 1, I must always keep the gun two stages away from firing yes? Rack slide, fire.


The gun must be kept legally not "loaded". That means no round in firing position (regardless of whether that specific round could be fired normally) and no round such that the single actuation of any mechanism once will cause it to fire, per URS 76-10-502. In practical terms, for a semi-auto, this means no round in the chamber, but a fully charged magazine can be in the firearm. For revolvers it is a bit more complex.


Now, for a list of places not off limits:

Businesses that post "no gun" signs. These are private policies and violation is a private matter. Refusal to leave when asked, or returning after asked not to return may result in trespassing charges or some civil action.

This includes your place of employment unless you work in a legally defined secure area. It is not illegal to violate your bosses "no gun" policy. But it is also perfectly legal for him to fire you for doing so. We do have parking lot preemption which protects you from adverse employment action so long as the gun is in your car, out of sight, and the car locked when you are not with it, even if you park in your employer's parking and they have a no-gun policy. The protection does not cover religious employment or certain other limited cases.

Bars (moot point for you) or restaurants that serve alcohol. Perfectly legal to take your gun into these and (when of age) even to imbibe if you so choose. You may not be intoxicated and in possession of a gun. Many will encourage you to avoid all alcohol consumption when carrying and that is a fine personal policy, but not legally required once you are legally able to drink.

Again, I highly encourage you to take the Utah concealed carry course and then read the laws yourself. It will be your butt on the line if you screw up so be sure you are familiar with the laws.

Again, welcome and best of luck.

Charles
Last edited by bagpiper on Tue 20 May 2014 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby gravedancer » Tue 20 May 2014 3:10 pm

Assuming you are not a "prohibited person" then yes as long as you adhere to other legal requirements. Prohibited person (effectively) means no felonies, no domestic violence misdemeanors, not a drug addict, not under the influence of or not in possession of any illicit drugs nor impaired by any drugs (legal or otherwise), never been adjudicated mentally incompetent. Some of these prohibitions are explicit in making you prohibited, others are not a lifetime ban, but effective in the moment. IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.


Also probably worth noting that since you are not of legal drinking age, Im pretty sure that ANY alcohol would qualify you as "under the influence", whereas for those 21 and over, the threshold for "under the influence" for carrying is the same as that for driving.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UtahJarhead » Tue 20 May 2014 4:01 pm

To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Tue 20 May 2014 4:12 pm

Tons of good information, thanks! Couple questions though...

First, I am not allowed onto a bus or train (I.e., TRAX) when open carrying?

And second, I am not allowed to carry on a post secondary campus such as UVU?

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Tue 20 May 2014 4:13 pm

As far as the 1000' rule goes, is that from the edge of the property or from the actual structure?

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby Utah_patriot » Tue 20 May 2014 4:59 pm

Correct you can not carry on any bus or train without a valid CFP. 76-10-1504 u . c . a makes it a felony.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby Utah_patriot » Tue 20 May 2014 4:59 pm

Also no colleges without A CFP

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Tue 20 May 2014 5:07 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.


If your revolver is single action, you only need to have the cylinder under the hammer empty. It will require cocking the firearm (to rotate the cylinder) and then pulling the trigger (two separate actions) actually discharge.

So if your single action revolver has the half-turn where the resting position is between two chambers, I believe you can legally get away with all chambers loaded. There is no round in firing position; and it takes two actions to fire a round.

On a double action revolver, the single act of pulling the trigger both rotates the cylinder and fires the next round up. So in addition to needing to keep the chamber under the hammer clear (per the "no round in firing position" rule), we also have to keep the next chamber up clear as a single action (pulling the trigger) would result in a round in that chamber.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Tue 20 May 2014 5:15 pm

UCChris wrote:As far as the 1000' rule goes, is that from the edge of the property or from the actual structure?


From the edge of the property. And it is as the crow flies regardless of how long a distance it would take you to get to the school. Being on the other side of a freeway doesn't matter.

This was a killer when Utah law included the 1000' rule on all post-secondary and pre-schools. With a little digging, Brent Tenney over as USSC discovered that the parking lot of Doug's Shoot n Sports was within the 1000' range of a pre-school. And consider how many strip malls have a beauty salon that is actually a vocational school.

There are a few exceptions for the 1000' rule, including your residence or your business property, as well as inside your car. But under a strict reading, if you park on the street rather than in your driveway or garage and carry your gun between the house and the car, you have violated the federal GFSZ law for that brief moment you were on the public street with your gun.

A permit from the State in which the school is located exempts you from the federal GFSZ law if State law so allows; and Utah law does. But if you intend to carry a gun, sans permit, on your person, you will need a good map to determine exactly where you are legal. It isn't easy as we have a lot of children and thus a lot of schools in Utah. And 1000' from the edge of the property is a long distance.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Tue 20 May 2014 5:21 pm

Hmmm, the red tape necessary for me to legally carry a handgun is aggravating...

If I were to get a Maine permit (issued to 18yo if I understand correctly) would that allow me any more freedom, such as busses, colleges, or a salon? (Don't know why I'm at a salon anyway...)
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Tue 20 May 2014 6:49 pm

UCChris wrote:Hmmm, the red tape necessary for me to legally carry a handgun is aggravating...


Yup. Getting a permit greatly simplifies. But can you imagine having to get a permit to attend church, preach a sermon, write a book or read a newspaper, or have access to a lawyer if accused of a crime?

There is no good constitutional nor logical reason why the 2nd amendment should be treated as the red-headed step-child of the bill of rights. But that is where we are currently We are moving--however slowly--toward where we should be. With your desire to legally carry an effective self-defense, I hope you will get and stay involved politically to help with that movement.

UCChris wrote:If I were to get a Maine permit (issued to 18yo if I understand correctly) would that allow me any more freedom, such as busses, colleges, or a salon? (Don't know why I'm at a salon anyway...)



Yes. Utah recognizes all out-of-State permits. So a Maine permit would allow you to carry fully loaded and/or concealed if you wanted. It would allow you to legally carry at colleges and other post-secondary schools. It would also allow you to carry at K-12 schools so far as State law is concerned. But it does not offer any protection against the federal GFSZ law for K-12 including the 1000' zone out from school property. The only way to be in full compliance with that one is to have a Utah permit which requires you to be 21 years of age. I know, rock and hard place. It kind of sucks.

But again, we are moving the right direction. I was about 25 years old before I had any practical chance to get a permit Utah would recognize. That was when the pioneers of Utah's RKBA movement got us non-discriminatory (ie shall issue) permits. Of course, on the other hand, there was no State nor federal GFSZ law when I was in high school, so we just left our guns in the cars in the parking lot, left our knives in our pockets unless we had some use for them, and nobody wet themselves over such things. :dunno:

Without the Utah permit it is very difficult to fully comply with the federal GFSZ law if you just want to carry routinely. OTOH, if you have certain parts of your schedule where you feel a special need for protection--such as working the graveyard shift, or coming out of college classes late at night, etc--it may be possible to arrange your schedule and travel routes to comply. And then the Maine permit allows you to conceal, and to carry in more locations than without the permit. As an 18 year old, the ability to legally conceal may have huge advantage in terms of reducing the OEO hassle factor. Unless you look very old for your age, you are more likely to be hassled over OC than would someone twice your age. Yes, we get old, fat, bald, and tired, but in return we get hassled less over things like having a gun or driving slightly over the posted limit. I'm not at all sure it is a fair trade, so enjoy youth even with the limitations. :D

If you do choose to get a Maine permit, know that there are those who would see that as you skirting Utah law and were there to ever be an issue, you could become the poster boy for why Utah shouldn't recognize out-of-State permits. Your carrying a gun legally with or without a permit has a very real potential to cause major political headaches for all of your fellow gun owners. Which is nothing compared to the potential to bankrupt you and put you in prison for life if you ever use the gun. Both of these risks apply to each of us. But the former risk applies to someone your age a bit more than to us older guys.

We have the rights to own and carry firearms for self defense. With the exercise of those rights, comes some grave responsibilities. Again, I urge you to take the Utah concealed carry permit course from an instructor who really takes the time to teach the law well. This group is great for helping with information. But with your butt, your freedom, your future on the line every time you pick up or carry a gun for potential self-defense, you really want to be fully informed for yourself, with copies of code in hand.

Best of luck.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Tue 20 May 2014 7:22 pm

UCChris wrote:First, I am not allowed onto a bus or train (I.e., TRAX) when open carrying?


Without a valid permit to carry, possession on a train or bus is a felony with lifetime loss of RKBA.

With a valid permit to carry, you can choose whether to conceal or carry openly.

UCChris wrote:And second, I am not allowed to carry on a post secondary campus such as UVU?


Correct. (It ain't right, but that is what the law says.) Without a valid permit to carry, State law bans possession of guns on the grounds or in the buildings of a post-secondary school including UVU.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby Photocell » Tue 20 May 2014 7:57 pm

bagpiper wrote:IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.


I had a similar discussion about this with a gentleman that just retired from a fellow workplace. He had been struggling with chronic back pain and arthritis for many a years. He was prescribed pain killers to function at work, the discussion was mainly about driving and operating heavy machinery as instructed not to do on the label. He drove to work each day and operated equipment, I wouldn't look at him to be impaired as he functioned fine. Our discussion was mainly topic to DUI and how he could drive while on his meds. The difference between impaired and proper levels of the Rx in his system. (claims by his Dr.) however it got me thinking later to his right to carry. As you put it Charles he would not be eligible to carry, is this true? Or is it deeper like our discussion about impairment and proper dosage/levels/functionality? Just curious.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UtahJarhead » Tue 20 May 2014 7:57 pm

Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.
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