Where can I carry my gun???

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Wed 21 May 2014 7:00 am

bagpiper wrote: With your desire to legally carry an effective self-defense, I hope you will get and stay involved politically to help with that movement.


I'm planning on staying politically active. I'm currently deciding between law or politician as a career right now.

bagpiper wrote: Yes. Utah recognizes all out-of-State permits. So a Maine permit would allow you to carry fully loaded and/or concealed if you wanted. It would allow you to legally carry at colleges and other post-secondary schools. It would also allow you to carry at K-12 schools so far as State law is concerned. But it does not offer any protection against the federal GFSZ law for K-12 including the 1000' zone out from school property. The only way to be in full compliance with that one is to have a Utah permit which requires you to be 21 years of age. I know, rock and hard place. It kind of sucks.


So, if I am understanding this correctly, the State would allow me in/around K-12, but Federal law would not. So, even with a Maine permit, K-12 is still a no-no for me? However, busses/trains and post secondary would be okay with a Maine permit. Also, I could OC with one in the chamber, correct?

bagpiper wrote: OTOH, if you have certain parts of your schedule where you feel a special need for protection--such as working the graveyard shift, or coming out of college classes late at night, etc--it may be possible to arrange your schedule and travel routes to comply.


Well, not trying to argue or belittle your words but, in MY opinion, I'd want a gun not only where I feel I need protection but especially where I don't think I do. I think that I will be a lot less "on-guard", "condition yellow", or whatever you may say to describe situational awareness, in "safer" areas.

bagpiper wrote: And then the Maine permit allows you to conceal, and to carry in more locations than without the permit. As an 18 year old, the ability to legally conceal may have huge advantage in terms of reducing the OEO hassle factor. Unless you look very old for your age, you are more likely to be hassled over OC than would someone twice your age. Yes, we get old, fat, bald, and tired, but in return we get hassled less over things like having a gun or driving slightly over the posted limit. I'm not at all sure it is a fair trade, so enjoy youth even with the limitations. :D


My standard work attire is cargo shorts with a tucked in polo, but that's only for one of my four current jobs. Concealing in that getup is difficult unless I want to look at pocket options, which I'm not a fan of. So OC is for me when in that attire. I can throw on a t-shirt and conceal (with a ME permit) when I need to though. I realize I might get hassled for OC, but I do look much older than 18. I have no doubt I can pass for 24-25.

bagpiper wrote: If you do choose to get a Maine permit, know that there are those who would see that as you skirting Utah law and were there to ever be an issue, you could become the poster boy for why Utah shouldn't recognize out-of-State permits. Your carrying a gun legally with or without a permit has a very real potential to cause major political headaches for all of your fellow gun owners. Which is nothing compared to the potential to bankrupt you and put you in prison for life if you ever use the gun. Both of these risks apply to each of us. But the former risk applies to someone your age a bit more than to us older guys. We have the rights to own and carry firearms for self defense. With the exercise of those rights, comes some grave responsibilities.


I've thought about my decision to carry, especially OC, a lot. I don't know if anyone is ever truly ready for the ramifications, but I know that I'd rather have it when I need it than to need it and not have it. I've taken a serious look at my life and how I act and due to that I have taken considerable time and effort to become much more mature than the "standard" 18 year old that has recently graduated high school.

bagpiper wrote: Again, I urge you to take the Utah concealed carry permit course from an instructor who really takes the time to teach the law well. This group is great for helping with information. But with your butt, your freedom, your future on the line every time you pick up or carry a gun for potential self-defense, you really want to be fully informed for yourself, with copies of code in hand.


A class sounds like a really good idea. Do you have any recommendations here in the valley that are not terribly expensive?
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Wed 21 May 2014 7:57 am

UtahJarhead wrote:Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.


I did address that, but it appears I was in error. I thought we still had a 1000' rule if another crime was committed. But at least as far 76-10-505.5 is concerned, there is no 1000' rule at all. Sometimes I love being wrong. :dancing:

Or is the "1000' if another crime is committed" contained somewhere else in law?

Thanks

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Wed 21 May 2014 8:19 am

UCChris wrote:
So, if I am understanding this correctly, the State would allow me in/around K-12, but Federal law would not. So, even with a Maine permit, K-12 is still a no-no for me? However, busses/trains and post secondary would be okay with a Maine permit. Also, I could OC with one in the chamber, correct?


I believe that is correct.

UCChris wrote:Well, not trying to argue or belittle your words but, in MY opinion, I'd want a gun not only where I feel I need protection but especially where I don't think I do. I think that I will be a lot less "on-guard", "condition yellow", or whatever you may say to describe situational awareness, in "safer" areas.


I understand completely. And in addition to always being prepared with your firearm, there is great value in having a routine that you can always count on.

My point is simply that if you can't legally carry everywhere you go because of the federal GFSZ law, you might still be able to carry when and where your risk is highest. Certainly crime can happen anywhere, any time. But you are at higher risk working the graveyard shift alone in a convenience store or walking across a parking lot leaving a class after dark than you are running into Home Depot at 11:00 am on a Saturday.

A can of pepper-spray/mace, or a taser, or some other defensive weapon not covered by the federal GFSZ law might provide a measure of increased safety in those locations where you can't legally carry your gun. (and isn't a bad idea to have even when carrying a gun also so you have a less-than-lethal option should you need it). A quick open safe for your car would allow you to legally keep the gun fairly close at hand without theft being too easy.

Remember that everything about personal defense is a set of compromises or cost-benefit tradeoffs. Most of us could reduce our risk of being crime victims by turning our homes into fortresses and never leaving. We could wear heavy, uncomfortable, and expensive body armor. We could hire bodyguards. These are generally considered impractical for most of us. If we had need to be out and about in a war zone, we might insist on a rifle or shotgun. These are considered excessive and too difficult to carry for most of us, most of the time. So we settle on a handgun and then comprise between so-called "knock down power", accuracy, and ease of carry, cost, and perhaps other considerations. So carrying something other than a firearm is not nearly so much an abandonment of effective self-defense as it is simply another spot on the continuum of possible compromises and trades. Of course, maintaining situational awareness and avoiding or leaving higher-risk situations before a crime occurs or simply presenting yourself as a "hard target" regardless of whether you are armed or not is something that can and should be done at all times. Indeed, the very act of weighing risks and deciding how to address them is a critical step in maintaining situational awareness.

It isn't right or just that the law arbitrarily forces you to make compromises with your safety you'd prefer not to make. But until it can be changed, the risks of being victimized by a criminal must be weighed against the risk of being victimized by the federal government if you were to choose to violate federal law.

UCChris wrote:A class sounds like a really good idea. Do you have any recommendations here in the valley that are not terribly expensive?


We have a couple of instructors on this board whose prices are more than fair and I suspect a couple of them will pipe up. If not, start another thread specifically asking for instructors around your area.

Off list, I also recommend Clark Aposhian. He operates as Fair Warning Firearms Training and his contact info can be found at the link provided.

In any event, I recommend a smaller class where you can ask lots of questions. The larger classes at gun shows or sometimes held at gun stores are ok, and scheduling can be convenient. They check the box for getting a permit. But since your objective is a deep, personal knowledge, rather than just checking the box, I'd suggest attending a smaller class. Clark or any of the instructors on this list can help you with that.

Best of luck.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Wed 21 May 2014 9:48 am

Thank you for the information Charles. I currently carry a can of pepper spray in a horizontal belt holster, right where my gun should be. :D

Thanks for the suggestion on a CCW class. However, Clark @ FWFT requires I be 21 at the time of registration (for the class)
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Wed 21 May 2014 10:30 am

UCChris wrote:Thank you for the information Charles. I currently carry a can of pepper spray in a horizontal belt holster, right where my gun should be. :D



Glad to be of help. One last word of advice on this:

Change the location of your pepper spray immediately. And do not carry a gun until you get 100% used to the new pepper spray location. You never, ever, want to end up grabbing your gun when you intended to reach for pepper spray.

There was at least one case of a cop somewhere grabbing his gun when he intended to grab his taser. He put a bullet where he only intended to stun someone. I know a taser is a lot more like a gun than is a can of pepper spray. So the odds of the same mistake are lower. But no reason to risk it so I suggest finding a new location for the pepper spray and getting completely used to it before adding the firearm.

I wasn't aware Clark required you to be 21 to take the class. Good info to have. As I said, I know there are instructors on this list who will welcome an 18 year old to their classes.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UCChris » Wed 21 May 2014 12:06 pm

bagpiper wrote:Glad to be of help. One last word of advice on this:

Change the location of your pepper spray immediately. And do not carry a gun until you get 100% used to the new pepper spray location. You never, ever, want to end up grabbing your gun when you intended to reach for pepper spray.

There was at least one case of a cop somewhere grabbing his gun when he intended to grab his taser. He put a bullet where he only intended to stun someone. I know a taser is a lot more like a gun than is a can of pepper spray. So the odds of the same mistake are lower. But no reason to risk it so I suggest finding a new location for the pepper spray and getting completely used to it before adding the firearm.


You bring up a very good point! Pepper spray is moving to weak side. I don't think I'm going to carry multiple magazines so it can sit comfy over there.



bagpiper wrote:I wasn't aware Clark required you to be 21 to take the class. Good info to have. As I said, I know there are instructors on this list who will welcome an 18 year old to their classes.


I will poke around for that list and figure out who to take it from. Thanks!
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UtahJarhead » Wed 21 May 2014 12:21 pm

bagpiper wrote:
UtahJarhead wrote:Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.


I did address that, but it appears I was in error. I thought we still had a 1000' rule if another crime was committed. But at least as far 76-10-505.5 is concerned, there is no 1000' rule at all. Sometimes I love being wrong. :dancing:

Or is the "1000' if another crime is committed" contained somewhere else in law?

Thanks

Charles

I THOUGHT it was stripped out entirely about 2-3 years ago.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby rpyne » Wed 09 Jul 2014 9:08 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.


This depends on whether the revolver is single or double action. This description is for double action revolvers. A single action revolver only needs to have the chamber in line with the hammer/barrel empty. If you revolver has the half-turn resting position, all chambers can be loaded.

For example, my NAA mini revolver is a single action revolver with the resting position between two chambers. In the resting position between chambers there is no cartridge in the firing position and it requires two operations, cock, pull trigger, to fire. It is therefore Utah Unloaded as long as the hammer is resting between chambers.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby mljdeckard » Sun 13 Jul 2014 11:14 am

Be careful with the definition of an 'unloaded' revolver. The law is poorly written and creates confusion. Because it fails to state whether the 'firing position' means with the hammer cocked or with the hammer down, it can be inferred that you can't have a live cartridge under the hammer, even though it is impossible to fire that cartridge, because when you cock the hammer, the NEXT cartridge rotates to the firing position. It's a quirk in the law no one wants to address, because it's easier to just get a permit and not worry about it.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UtahJarhead » Sun 13 Jul 2014 6:25 pm

The law is not poorly written. It's very very clear what is 'loaded' in Utah. The firing position is the chamber under the hammer. The NEXT firing position must also be empty. There's nothing inferred.

No round under the hammer, no round in the next firing position.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby metalgimp » Sun 13 Jul 2014 7:30 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:No round under the hammer, no round in the next firing position.


Need I state the obvious? That means you only have 4 rounds in a 6-shooter or 3 rounds in a 5. I like the clear-cut definitions, but man, the results leaves me feeling a little cold.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby JoeSparky » Sun 13 Jul 2014 8:17 pm

And in the case where the hammer is at rest between live cartridges one is in compliance with the law if the next position is empty as there Is no live round under the hammer. This only applies to those carrying without a permit and not in a vehicle assuming they are 18 years or older.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby UtahJarhead » Sun 13 Jul 2014 8:32 pm

metalgimp wrote:
UtahJarhead wrote:No round under the hammer, no round in the next firing position.


Need I state the obvious? That means you only have 4 rounds in a 6-shooter or 3 rounds in a 5. I like the clear-cut definitions, but man, the results leaves me feeling a little cold.

You can state the obvious, and you're right, but in either case the law is very clear on what constitutes loaded. Also see JoeSparky's addendum above.
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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Mon 14 Jul 2014 8:58 am

mljdeckard wrote:Be careful with the definition of an 'unloaded' revolver. The law is poorly written and creates confusion. Because it fails to state whether the 'firing position' means with the hammer cocked or with the hammer down, it can be inferred that you can't have a live cartridge under the hammer, even though it is impossible to fire that cartridge, because when you cock the hammer, the NEXT cartridge rotates to the firing position. It's a quirk in the law no one wants to address, because it's easier to just get a permit and not worry about it.


Actually, the law is perfectly clear. Firing position is the round under the hammer, in line with the barrel. That is "firing position".

The "quirk" is not in the law itself, but in the history of which laws are passed when. The law against carrying a "loaded firearm" was passed first. I wasn't there, but suspect the requirements are based on safety considerations. A round in "firing position" might be fired accidentally (ie an ND) if a non-drop-safe firearm is dropped. So the law requires no live round in "firing position." The law, in this case, simply mirrors what was fairly common practice among the old timers who knew well enough to leave the chamber under the hammer empty to avoid an ND in the event of a drop or other impact to the gun.

It then requires that no round can be fired by the actuation of a single mechanism, once. So if you have a double-action revolver, the next up chamber must be empty. However, in a single-action revolver, no round can be fired by the actuation of a single mechanism once, so you are free to have the next up chamber (and all others) loaded with live rounds. The single-action NAA mini-revolvers with the safety notch between chambers presents a unique case as the cylinder can be positioned such that no chamber is in "firing position".

In any event, years or decades later we pass firearm carry permit statutes and exempt holders of permits from the statute banning loaded guns.

A similar situation happened with permit-free car carry. We worked the bill to allow loaded and concealed firearms to be carried in cars without permits. Right near the end, some legislators raised safety concerns about long guns that maybe were not as drop-safe as were handguns. To pass the bill, we accepted a limitation that the "loaded" portion applied only to handguns. Of course, those with permits are still exempted from the entire statute and can still have loaded long guns if they desire.

The reason no one has made an effort to "fix" the "loaded" statute is because we can't figure out how to make it any better (short of complete repeal) for gun owners. The simple statute is to not allow any live ammo in the gun at all. That would be a huge step backwards. We could try to diddle around with eliminating the whole "actuation of a single mechanism once" but that is a very small gain at the risk of legislators deciding to just go the other direction and require no live rounds at all. The best fix is to just eliminate the ban on loaded guns in public and go for permit-free, constitutional carry. Even then, that is likely to be passed first as some kind of "limited" exemption to current statute as Alaska did.

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Re: Where can I carry my gun???

Postby bagpiper » Mon 14 Jul 2014 9:10 am

metalgimp wrote:
UtahJarhead wrote:No round under the hammer, no round in the next firing position.


Need I state the obvious? That means you only have 4 rounds in a 6-shooter or 3 rounds in a 5. I like the clear-cut definitions, but man, the results leaves me feeling a little cold.


That is current law for a double-action. For a single-action, you can do 5 rounds in a 6 shooter and 4 in a 5 shooter. If you single-action has the safety notch in which to rest the hammer between rounds, you can get away with loading up all chambers as there is not a chamber in firing position when the gun is carried.

A permit to carry exempts one from this requirement, A Utah permit also exempts one from the federal GFSZ law as applied to schools (and 1000 feet out from the edge of school property) located in Utah. It is all but impossible to carry sans permit in a Utah city without violation of the federal GFSZ law.

The proper "fix" to the "quirk" of Utah's ban on carrying "loaded" guns is to eliminate the ban entirely and move to permit-free (ie Constitutional) carry; either open or concealed.

Any other "fix" to simplify it would most likely result in requiring that an "unloaded" gun simply have no live ammo at all in it. No magazine in a semi-auto, all chambers empty in a revolver.

Our current "quirky" law is much to our advantage, comparatively.

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