OC oops

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OC oops

Postby metalgimp » Mon 16 Jun 2014 1:29 pm

Normally I CC. A few days ago, however, I found that after I had returned from Home Depot, I was fully OC'ing. See, I get in the car after work and put my gun in my holster (yes, I leave my holster on at work, because it shreds my belt). At times, my shirt gets in the way, and the result is a fully showing piece.

I got a few "looks," but I didn't think about it, because I kind of stick out anyway. It wasn't until I got home that I noticed it. My wife's only response was "oops" (I'm very blessed to have such a supporting mate).

So, count me "in" as someone who OC'ed in public, albeit Ignorantly.

BTW, I can't recall if I said this, but a few months ago, I ran into a cop in our neighborhood (different from the first). He's PG PD. I asked him what he thought about CC. He shrugged, but he said that OC really bugs him. Why? They (PG PD) get calls from a worried/concerned citizen, and they [hear the grumbling] have to go and check it out. His gripe is not at all the OC; it is often the attitude of the carrier: "It's my right!" Could we just be a little more courteous? When confronted, conceal it.

Now, if you don't have a CCL,... I don't know what you can do.

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Re: OC oops

Postby divegeek » Mon 16 Jun 2014 2:37 pm

I can understand police being annoyed about having to respond to time-wasting calls, but I'm completely unimpressed by gripes about the attitude of the carrier. If what the carrier is doing is legal, it's legal. Period. Yes, it's nice to be polite to police officers, so you should politely explain to them that it's your right to OC -- and that's all the police officer has any right to expect. You don't have to conceal just because a cop asks you to any more than you have to allow him to search your car just because he asks.

Oh, and the solution to time-wasting calls is to educate the dispatcher to ask the right questions, to determine whether or not the person with the gun is behaving in a threatening manner before wasting officers' time.
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Re: OC oops

Postby gskip33 » Mon 16 Jun 2014 10:47 pm

divegeek wrote:I can understand police being annoyed about having to respond to time-wasting calls, but I'm completely unimpressed by gripes about the attitude of the carrier. If what the carrier is doing is legal, it's legal. Period. Yes, it's nice to be polite to police officers, so you should politely explain to them that it's your right to OC -- and that's all the police officer has any right to expect. You don't have to conceal just because a cop asks you to any more than you have to allow him to search your car just because he asks.

Oh, and the solution to time-wasting calls is to educate the dispatcher to ask the right questions, to determine whether or not the person with the gun is behaving in a threatening manner before wasting officers' time.


It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond. If anything just for liability's sake. Imagine if a dispatcher deemed a man oc'ing to be nothing and them he turns out to be an active shooter. That'd be a crap storm for the pd and the dispatcher would be fired.
It's the sop for most agencies I know of.

And as to oc'ing being your right, yes it is (in utah anyways). Simply put, officers don't care. A rude person with a gun is a possible threat, regardless of whether or not he is legally carrying. A nice person with a gun does not appear to be a threat as much as an incredibly rude person would. In my mind it has nothing to do with legalities; it is all about safety.

However, if the officer does something wrong then by all means call him out on it. You do not have to conceal it. That rule doesn't exist.
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Re: OC oops

Postby UCChris » Mon 16 Jun 2014 11:24 pm

Which HD was it? I only OC right now and I haven't had any weird looks at the AF one. Even from my co-workers when I come in off the clock ( I work there)

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Re: OC oops

Postby UtahJarhead » Tue 17 Jun 2014 6:54 am

metalgimp wrote:When confronted, conceal it.

No. Not only no, but [HECK] no. If that's anybody's opinion of me OCing, they can eat a bag of Dinglewhoppers and go pound sand. My OCing a handgun in a holster is my right and it's not harming any cause, just their feelings.
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Re: OC oops

Postby manithree » Tue 17 Jun 2014 7:08 am

gskip33 wrote:It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.


What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?
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Re: OC oops

Postby gravedancer » Tue 17 Jun 2014 8:31 am

manithree wrote:
gskip33 wrote:It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.


What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?


It boils down to departments being afraid of potential lawsuits if someone reports a "man with a gun", but they dont go check it out for whatever reason, and then that "man with a gun" ends up shooting up a school or shopping mall. Im sure somewhere some lawyer decided its better to waste lots of time (and taxpayers money) checking out BS calls about nothing, than it is to potentially get sued for millions later by families of victims of the one time it turns out to not be nothing.

I usually CC, but I do occasionally OC, or loosely conceal. If someone comes up to me and says "your gun is showing" or something to that effect, my response is usually something along the lines of "yeah I know, but dont worry its very well trained. It hardly ever leaps out of the holster and starts shooting people on its own". If someone were really adamant about me (and my gun) not being welcome in their business, id leave, but not before saying something like "Ok I'll leave, but would you be asking someone to leave simply because they were black, or gay ? My carrying my gun is a constitutionally protected right and discriminating against me because of it is every bit as wrong as discriminating against someone for one of those other reasons."
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Re: OC oops

Postby gskip33 » Tue 17 Jun 2014 11:11 am

manithree wrote:
gskip33 wrote:It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.


What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?


I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.
The only thing I tried to explain was officers talking to OCers. Yes it is legal. The officer doesn't care. He wants to know you are a good guy with a gun. That's all. If you are nice and it appears you are a good guy with a gun the officer will leave you alone (depending on the officer).
If you are a stubborn [Edited by mod. -Don] to the officer it'll be much more difficult to convince him you are a good guy with a gun. You might even be a threat if you start to get angry. That applies to anyone. If an officer talks to someone who flips out on the officer you can bet your cash the officer will be suspicious and bother him even more.

And there is nothing illegal about calling in something a citizen thinks is weird. Sometimes we don't respond but most of the time we send an officer to check it out. Even if it is stupid and the suspect isn't breaking the law. It may be a waste or resources but I can guarantee you that if the officer has something better to do than look for the "suspicious black guy" who is only suspicious because he is black, the officer will respond only when the high priority calls have been looked into.
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Re: OC oops

Postby metalgimp » Tue 17 Jun 2014 1:02 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:
metalgimp wrote:When confronted, conceal it.

No. Not only no, but [HECK] no. If that's anybody's opinion of me OCing, they can eat a bag of Dinglewhoppers and go pound sand. My OCing a handgun in a holster is my right and it's not harming any cause, just their feelings.


I admit I erred on pontificating the point, but I stand by the gist of what I said: be courteous. Cops have had on the bad for too long: they always get the short end of the stick. Yes, I've had more than enough bully-cops to understandably mistrust the whole lot, but that's not in my nature. If I were to be confronted, I guess I would ask: "How can I alleviate your concerns?" Note that I didn't say anything about the public at large. We're preached all the time to be "tolerant" or to "coexist." I want to do what is right, and sometimes doing what's right may make others uncomfortable.

Of course, being in someone's face never sells anything.
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Re: OC oops

Postby metalgimp » Tue 17 Jun 2014 1:10 pm

UCChris wrote:Which HD was it? I only OC right now and I haven't had any weird looks at the AF one. Even from my co-workers when I come in off the clock ( I work there)

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The weird looks came from the customers not the employees. I guessed it might have been because it wasn't really standing out.
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UPDATE: OC oops

Postby metalgimp » Tue 17 Jun 2014 2:11 pm

!!!Now, here's something.!!!

For the last 3-4 years, our family has rented booths at certain fairs. The purpose is to sell my fiction books (I'm an author) and stuff we make as a family. When I got there, I discretely asked the coordinator if it was alright to CC as a vendor. She had no problem.

While I was setting up the booth, naturally my firearm was exposed very frequently, but there was little I could do about it. No one noticed and/or cared. I'm liking that.

MetalGimp

PS. As it would happen, after I left home to go to bed (b/c of meds), my family stayed to finish and pack up. Someone tried to rob the till by confusing and frustrating my 12-year-old son. We're doing another show this weekend in Strawberry Days. Could anyone stick around to watch over my family? I'll need help Th, F, S nights.
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Re: OC oops

Postby manithree » Tue 17 Jun 2014 2:19 pm

gskip33 wrote:I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.


True, that part of my response was more directed toward the OP.

PD's choose the policy that requires them to check every MWAG. I have never heard of a 911 or non-emergency dispatcher choosing to triage a MWAG call, or the PD choosing to follow up with the caller that their really was no reason to call. So the officer grumbles that OC bugs him and he wishes people wouldn't do it. Well, stop making it such a pain for yourself, don't blame it on me.
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Re: OC oops

Postby Sam Fidler » Tue 17 Jun 2014 3:15 pm

No irrational fear, concern for mythical safety, or inconvenience to a police officer is reason enough for me to willingly surrender my natural rights.
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Re: OC oops

Postby UCChris » Tue 17 Jun 2014 6:03 pm

metalgimp wrote: Could anyone stick around to watch over my family? I'll need help Th, F, S nights.


If I was going to be around, I would have been happy to stick around the booth. But I will be camping, sorry!

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Re: OC oops

Postby divegeek » Tue 17 Jun 2014 6:31 pm

manithree wrote:
gskip33 wrote:I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.


True, that part of my response was more directed toward the OP.

PD's choose the policy that requires them to check every MWAG. I have never heard of a 911 or non-emergency dispatcher choosing to triage a MWAG call, or the PD choosing to follow up with the caller that their really was no reason to call.

I have. Several times.

Here's one anecdotal post from sg_pilot, who says a dispatcher friend from Washington County was trained not to send the police if the MWAG wasn't being threatening.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11644&p=133617&hilit=#p133605

There have been many other examples we've heard of over the last few years where 911 dispatchers were being trained to handle OC correctly.
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