OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

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OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby JoeSparky » Mon 08 Sep 2014 3:49 pm

Hello all,

Today was grandparents day at the public elementary school 2 of my grandkids attend. Not sure what to expect regarding my OC firearm and knowing that while in the school (not driving) and having been issued a Utah permit to conceal (but no requirement in Utah to carry same) I went in sterile (DL and permit in vehicle in school parking lot).

Following the instructions found upon entering the school I reported to the office as a visitor. They gave me the room numbers I needed for my 0930 time for the 1st grader and the 1100 time for the 6th grader. Nothing said about my firearm, no surprised looks, no panicked running of school kids or teachers, and no blood in the streets.

Had a pleasant visit with a surprised 1st grader who did not know I was going to be there. No issues for the 30 mins in his classroom scrunched up in a 1st grader sized seat!

The on to my next appointment after waiting in my vehicle doing some internet surfing of UCC and some other sites.

I entered the school again about 15 mins early for the 1100 visit for the 6th graders. I visited with a couple other grandparents who I know saw, but said nothing, nor did they act surprised. At the scheduled time the teacher invited us in to find our grandkids. Just as I sat next to mine one of her class mates gets my attention and asks if I am a cop. I tell him no. His eyes widen just a bit and then he asks: "Then why do you have a gun?'" I reply:"because I am a good guy and hope to be prepared to defend myself and others if needed." His response is a dual thumbs up and "cool" with a smile.

About 20 min later I quietly tell the teacher about the exchange with his student and that I was oc'ing currently. He tells me---- (wink, wink)" We are not supposed to announce which of us conceal or not" (wink, wink). And then tells me about his father who was on tv in the early 60's as part of the 20 muleteam borax show as a sheriff and trick shooter.

All in all a great time as I got to exercise some rights, expose others to a non LEO who carries lawfully, and most important some time with a pair of my grandkids.
JoeSparky
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby bagpiper » Mon 08 Sep 2014 4:12 pm

Sounds like it went just as it should. And just what I'd expect in most Utah schools given my personal experiences.

But I guess I don't understand why you would go sterile into a school. It is only legal to carry into a school if you have a permit. So if asked, you are going to have to provide at least enough information for the cop to either verify you have a permit, or go get the permit out of the car anyway. Sterile carry seems to make sense only in those cases where no permit is required and the person carrying wants to be able to avoid providing any more personal information that would be legally required when stopped on the street for any other reason.

Charles
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby dewittdj » Mon 08 Sep 2014 5:06 pm

It follows the concept of the "Overton Window", where extremism on the far left has to be countered with extremism on the far right.

Sterile, if stopped, further emphasizes the extent to which law enforcement must exercise due diligence in the performance of their duties.

I have to agree, that it would tend to escalate rather than deescalate tensions should an overzealous rookie get called in for a MWAG at an elementary school.

I would rather not that my grand kids see me cuffed by said overzealous OEO responding to such a call. [Note: I don't have any grand kids, yet).

Glad it went well and that the school staff and adults present didn't over react.
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby Photocell » Mon 08 Sep 2014 5:10 pm

bagpiper wrote:
But I guess I don't understand why you would go sterile into a school.


I'm guessing it has to do with the size of Joe's wallet. I hear they get to be pretty uncomfortable when they get real thick! :lol3:

This post really makes me smile Joe, it's great to hear such events. Just a regular guy, carrying his regular gun, participating in the ever slipping regular family activity. WELL DONE! :thumbsup:
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby JoeSparky » Mon 08 Sep 2014 5:29 pm

bagpiper wrote:Sounds like it went just as it should. And just what I'd expect in most Utah schools given my personal experiences.

But I guess I don't understand why you would go sterile into a school. It is only legal to carry into a school if you have a permit. So if asked, you are going to have to provide at least enough information for the cop to either verify you have a permit, or go get the permit out of the car anyway. Sterile carry seems to make sense only in those cases where no permit is required and the person carrying wants to be able to avoid providing any more personal information that would be legally required when stopped on the street for any other reason.

Charles

If the officer demanded ID to be presented, I could truthfully state that I had none with me. Upon determining that I am actually being detained, Then upon stating my name and city of residence, I tell him I do have a permit issued by Utah, that i am not required to carry said permit by law, and then tell him my purpose in the school----- Grandparents day! And tell him for anything else, AFTER MY ATTORNEY IS PRESENT!
JoeSparky
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby JoeSparky » Mon 08 Sep 2014 5:33 pm

Photocell wrote:
bagpiper wrote:
But I guess I don't understand why you would go sterile into a school.


I'm guessing it has to do with the size of Joe's wallet. I hear they get to be pretty uncomfortable when they get real thick! :lol3:

Snipped


Yep, I may have to go back to the old bi-fold instead of the tri-fold one that is getting to the point it needs to be replaced!
JoeSparky
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby bagpiper » Tue 09 Sep 2014 10:18 am

dewittdj wrote:It follows the concept of the "Overton Window", where extremism on the far left has to be countered with extremism on the far right.

Sterile, if stopped, further emphasizes the extent to which law enforcement must exercise due diligence in the performance of their duties.



Joe Sparky wrote:
If the officer demanded ID to be presented, I could truthfully state that I had none with me. Upon determining that I am actually being detained, Then upon stating my name and city of residence, I tell him I do have a permit issued by Utah, that i am not required to carry said permit by law, and then tell him my purpose in the school----- Grandparents day! And tell him for anything else, AFTER MY ATTORNEY IS PRESENT!



I guess to each their own. I do note (and suspect any court would as well) the obvious legal differences between OCing in a public place where guns are generally permitted vs carrying in a school where guns are generally prohibited unless one has a permit (or other authorization) which provides an exemption to the prohibition. While OCing in a location where guns are generally permitted may not, of itself, be probable cause for a stop (and I emphasize "may not be probable cause" because the one court opinion on this matter is not from a court that sets binding precedence), I would expect that a firearm in a location like a school where guns are generally prohibited very easily could be probable cause for a stop to verify the presence of a permit (or other authorization).

In any event, as dewittdj pointed out, any kind of escalation of hassle in front of the grand kids would seem to be most unfortunate.

Beyond which, while I recognize there are times and situations where a little "extremism" (or perhaps just standing 100% in defense of rights) is needful and proper (such as in a public location, especially if the police in that area have a history of not respecting rights), I think there are also a lot of times and places where, at least initially, quick and low-key cooperation is the right way to go and helps advance the truth that we who carry guns are law abiding AND part of that "polite society" we like to tout being present when folks are armed.

Obviously, the officer's conduct and demeanor will have some effect on the proper response, but a low-key, "Have you got a permit to bring that in here?" or something similar in a school setting, I think is best met with a smile and, "Yes, I do. Do you want to see it?" If he does, having it in my pocket makes the entire encounter quick and painless for everyone. Probably he doesn't.

As I said, to each his own. But for me personally, I do think there are times not to push things as far as one might be legally entitled to.

Charles
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Re: OC at Grandparents day in Orem (alpine school dist)

Postby DaKnife » Thu 11 Sep 2014 6:46 pm

^^^ :agree: :agree: :agree: ^^^
SPOOOOOOON!!!

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