Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby MichaelD » Wed 18 Feb 2015 12:02 pm

gravedancer wrote:Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesnt like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.


I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby Car Knocker » Wed 18 Feb 2015 1:28 pm

MichaelD wrote:I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.


If that were the case, I'd think the rule would apply to all firearms and not exempt those that are concealed. I think that this is a rule in search of a problem.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby gravedancer » Wed 18 Feb 2015 3:06 pm

MichaelD wrote:
gravedancer wrote:Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesnt like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.


I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.



Then why say concealed weapons are fine ? What is the safety difference between a properly holstered firearm that is openly carried vs concealed, other than a thin layer of cloth ? The answer is none. If the concern is over draw from a holster, fine, have a rule saying no drawing from retention. But to go out of your way to say openly carried firearms are bad but concealed ones ok, that seems to indicate a bias towards open carry. I conceal about 90% of the time (though when Im RSOing is one of the few times I do generally OC), so this isnt just me being an OC fanatic. I just cant see the logic behind saying "OC is bad, but CC is fine" if the rule is just about safety.

That being said... the rules are out there for everyone to see, and if you dont like the rules, find a different range. If your beef is that the rules are only enforced on the shooters at the range and not the RSOs, well... not to be blunt but most people figure out after about the 3rd grade that the world isnt always what they consider to be fair. If an RSO tells the public to follow the rules, while not saying anything to another RSO that is breaking the same rule, it might be that the RSO isnt worried about his coworker accidentally shooting someone (like he would be about the general public). Or maybe its because he has no authority to make another RSO comply with the rule, while he does when it comes to the public. Or maybe he doesnt realize the rule applies to RSOs as well, or maybe he just doesnt give a crap. In any case, it all comes back to "if you dont like the rules, vote with your wallet". There are many ranges in the area that dont give a whip if you open carry or not, as long as you arent fondling the firearm at inappropriate times.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby Sam Fidler » Wed 18 Feb 2015 3:23 pm

If anyone thinks that a piece of cloth makes a gun any safer, Do they also think this makes you disappear?

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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby bagpiper » Wed 18 Feb 2015 6:02 pm

May I offer a slightly different perspective?

I personally think a holstered gun should be fine. That said, I can understand the idea that there should not be any guns behind the firing line.

So, the difference between open and concealed? Well, how often does someone say, "Concealed is concealed"? Perhaps the rule on concealed guns is simply a nod toward that and an allowance that those who keep their guns concealed are not actually in violation of the range rules.

Charles

EDIT to add:

I don't even have a problem if ROs are allowed to have an holstered gun while general range users are not. Presumably, the RO has long since demonstrated his safety and his strict adherence to safety rules. That cannot be said of everyone who may walk in to use the range. So one rule for range users and a slightly different rule for ROs causes me no heartburn. When I'm walking down range to change out a target, I want very high assurance that nobody is going to be lobbing bullets my way. A range, even more so than gun stores and gun shows, are places where gun are handled in ways that would generate an arrest or a self-defense shooting in most other situations. So some special rules are warranted.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby dewittdj » Wed 18 Feb 2015 9:01 pm

Sam Fidler wrote:If anyone thinks that a piece of cloth makes a gun any safer, Do they also think this makes you disappear?
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Hey!!! Now where did Sam go??? Wait a minute!!! Where is everyone??? Why is it so dark in here???
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby dewittdj » Wed 18 Feb 2015 9:02 pm

Car Knocker wrote:
MichaelD wrote:I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.

If that were the case, I'd think the rule would apply to all firearms and not exempt those that are concealed. I think that this is a rule in search of a problem.

:agree:
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby dewittdj » Wed 18 Feb 2015 9:03 pm

bagpiper wrote:May I offer a slightly different perspective?
I personally think a holstered gun should be fine. That said, I can understand the idea that there should not be any guns behind the firing line.
So, the difference between open and concealed? Well, how often does someone say, "Concealed is concealed"? Perhaps the rule on concealed guns is simply a nod toward that and an allowance that those who keep their guns concealed are not actually in violation of the range rules.
Charles
EDIT to add:
I don't even have a problem if ROs are allowed to have an holstered gun while general range users are not. Presumably, the RO has long since demonstrated his safety and his strict adherence to safety rules. That cannot be said of everyone who may walk in to use the range. So one rule for range users and a slightly different rule for ROs causes me no heartburn. When I'm walking down range to change out a target, I want very high assurance that nobody is going to be lobbing bullets my way. A range, even more so than gun stores and gun shows, are places where gun are handled in ways that would generate an arrest or a self-defense shooting in most other situations. So some special rules are warranted.

:agree:
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby dewittdj » Wed 18 Feb 2015 9:04 pm

gravedancer wrote:
MichaelD wrote:
gravedancer wrote:Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesn't like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.

I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.

Then why say concealed weapons are fine ? What is the safety difference between a properly holstered firearm that is openly carried vs concealed, other than a thin layer of cloth ? The answer is none. If the concern is over draw from a holster, fine, have a rule saying no drawing from retention. But to go out of your way to say openly carried firearms are bad but concealed ones ok, that seems to indicate a bias towards open carry. I conceal about 90% of the time (though when Im RSOing is one of the few times I do generally OC), so this isn't just me being an OC fanatic. I just cant see the logic behind saying "OC is bad, but CC is fine" if the rule is just about safety.
That being said... the rules are out there for everyone to see, and if you don't like the rules, find a different range. If your beef is that the rules are only enforced on the shooters at the range and not the RSOs, well... not to be blunt but most people figure out after about the 3rd grade that the world isn't always what they consider to be fair. If an RSO tells the public to follow the rules, while not saying anything to another RSO that is breaking the same rule, it might be that the RSO isn't worried about his coworker accidentally shooting someone (like he would be about the general public). Or maybe its because he has no authority to make another RSO comply with the rule, while he does when it comes to the public. Or maybe he doesn't realize the rule applies to RSOs as well, or maybe he just doesn't give a crap. In any case, it all comes back to "if you don't like the rules, vote with your wallet". There are many ranges in the area that don't give a whip if you open carry or not, as long as you aren't fondling the firearm at inappropriate times.

:agree:
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby quychang » Wed 18 Feb 2015 10:41 pm

I personally think that in a range situation, where everyone knows everyone has guns, and there's a pretty good chance that if you don't see one, you just aren't looking hard enough, that it's silly to have different rules for OC vs. CC. I honestly think that whether RO's can carry or not is pretty irrelevant. The real question is safety and frankly OC is no less safe than CC. A gun in a holster is no less or more safe because of a layer of cloth. In fact, a good share of OC holsters are retention, whereas most of the CC holsters I've dealt with are not. So you can make a case for the OC gun to actually be safer, if marginally.

But I also agree with the opinion that if you don't like the rules, vote with your wallet, and your feet. Shoot somewhere else. Let people in a position to act know about your decision if you like, but be polite about it. Personally, due to my mobility problem, I prefer to shoot at indoor ranges when I can. No traipsing out to set or retrieve targets, and no worries about being in front of the firing line. But that's just me. I do like the fact that the noise is somewhat lower out doors, and I do like the range and RO's at Lee Kay, if I lived closer, I suspect I'd shoot there on occasion. Wahsatch is close, and I may try to make a few trips up there this summer, and see how much it's changed. I didn't care for the clamp down from one year to the next, skipped last year altogether. If it's worse, I may just bag it. I do understand restrictions to keep people safe, but that doesn't make being treated like the lowest common denominator any more pleasant. Especially when there are other options ranging from BLM land to other ranges. Utah has more than enough choices for us all to be happy.

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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby 45 mag » Thu 19 Feb 2015 9:20 am

as a rso myself i do oc sometimes but most often cc i have gone to kaysville before but the last time i was there i was asked to cover i have not gone back, if john q public can not oc the rso should not !!!
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby D-FIN » Thu 19 Feb 2015 5:09 pm

This is by far not just a WSA thing. Most Range rules I have read are very similar and most do not specify OC or CC just say all firearms must be cased or carried with action open and muzzle up. Unofficially most do not enforce anything with regards to CC. I don't own an arsenal so if I go to the range my gun is holstered on my hip. I have spoken to personnel as several ranges and never had any problems with taking my gun into the range this way. The way I figure the range is the safest location for me to remove my gun and unload my SD rounds so I can load target rounds. Much better than trying to do it in the car then carry the empty gun in.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby rufus » Wed 06 May 2015 11:47 am

I make no attempt to opine at any range other than Lee Kay. Recently, due to updates from the legal folks, open carry by patrons of Lee Kay is allowed. This overturns 35 years of policy, but as one of their long time R$O's, I don't have a personal problem with it. You still can't draw or unholster during a cease fire. As to our RSO's open carrying, there are state policies to comply with. Concealed is fine, but to open carry, one must be a POST graduate while in state uniform.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby gravedancer » Wed 06 May 2015 12:23 pm

rufus wrote: As to our RSO's open carrying, there are state policies to comply with. Concealed is fine, but to open carry, one must be a POST graduate while in state uniform.


Pretty sure that if there were such a policy, it would be illegal at a state agency, unless there is a law on the books to back it up.
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Re: Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

Postby bagpiper » Wed 06 May 2015 12:25 pm

rufus wrote: [Regarding State-owned/run and taxpayer funded Lee Kay] You still can't draw or unholster during a cease fire.


Makes perfect sense from a safety perspective.

rufus wrote:As to our RSO's open carrying, there are state policies to comply with. Concealed is fine, but to open carry, one must be a POST graduate while in state uniform.


State policies regarding firearms cannot conflict with State preemption law. Has the legislature delegated to Lee Kay the authority to regulate the open carrying of firearms by their employees? If so, where is that delegation found?

We've all kind of turned a blind eye to school district policies that require employees to keep firearms concealed. I believe those policies are also against State law but:
1-I don't think I can win that battle politically;
2-I've got higher priorities;
3-I'm not convinced that requiring teachers to keep guns concealed in a classroom setting is a terrible idea.

But RSOs at a State funded range? That is a little different story than a high school math teacher.

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