Rules of oc

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Rules of oc

Postby Ryan1971 » Thu 14 Jan 2010 12:40 pm

I posted this yesterday but I don't know if it actually posted. What are the rules on oc versus cc if you have a concealed weapons permit? I did not think we were allowed to open carry.

Thanks,

Ryan
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Rupper » Thu 14 Jan 2010 12:56 pm

You are allowed to OC even if you have a CC permit. Having the CC permit allows you to OC with a round in the chamber and in school zones.

It is similar to a drivers license. Just because I have a drivers license doesn't mean I can no longer walk. The drivers license gives me more options (driving). The CC permit gives the person who is going to OC more options (a round in the chamber and school zones).
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Rupper » Thu 14 Jan 2010 12:58 pm

One other thing. There may be other options a CC permit gives to the person who wants to OC. A round in the chamber and school zones are the two I am aware of.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Dustin WJ » Thu 14 Jan 2010 1:46 pm

Rupper is absolutely correct. The permit allows concealment, but it does not require it. And, as Rupper said, the permit also allows you to carry at public schools and to carry "Utah loaded" (a round in the chamber), whether the firearm is concealed or in the open.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Cinhil » Thu 14 Jan 2010 3:20 pm

Well, both the Drivers License and the CCW are rights, but government feels they must charge you for them for you to be able to exercise these inherent rights. A CCW also allows you to carry almost any weapon legally allowed a citizen to possess. Kind of hard to conceal a tank! (wink) :tank: Seriously though, you could conceal a sword, a knife, a pistol etc. as long as it is a lawful weapon you may carry it concealed or not.
What part of "Shall not be infringed" is not being abused today!

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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Ryan1971 » Thu 14 Jan 2010 4:46 pm

Thanks for the input.

Ryan
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby thering » Thu 14 Jan 2010 9:38 pm

Cinhil wrote:Well, both the Drivers License and the CCW are rights, but government feels they must charge you for them for you to be able to exercise these inherent rights. A CCW also allows you to carry almost any weapon legally allowed a citizen to possess. Kind of hard to conceal a tank! (wink) :tank: Seriously though, you could conceal a sword, a knife, a pistol etc. as long as it is a lawful weapon you may carry it concealed or not.


Then why does Utah BCI call it a Concealed FIREARM Permit? I've always wondered that. Should it not be called a Concealed WEAPONS Permit?
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby divegeek » Thu 14 Jan 2010 9:41 pm

thering wrote:Then why does Utah BCI call it a Concealed FIREARM Permit? I've always wondered that. Should it not be called a Concealed WEAPONS Permit?

The name of the permit is just a name. The name has no legal meaning; the value of the permit is spelled out in the law, and it exempts you from the law against possession of concealed dangerous weapons (among others).
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Rupper » Thu 14 Jan 2010 10:40 pm

One other thing the CC permit provides is that it exempts you from the messed up DWR rules while hunting. For example, you cannot OC while on the muzzle loader hunt. With a CC permit you can.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Daeyel » Mon 18 Jan 2010 6:12 pm

Cinhil wrote:Well, both the Drivers License and the CCW are rights, but government feels they must charge you for them for you to be able to exercise these inherent rights. A CCW also allows you to carry almost any weapon legally allowed a citizen to possess. Kind of hard to conceal a tank! (wink) :tank: Seriously though, you could conceal a sword, a knife, a pistol etc. as long as it is a lawful weapon you may carry it concealed or not.


A small correction here.
You do NOT have the RIGHT to drive. Driving a deadly 2 ton mass of metal is a PRIVILEGE the state will grant you after you show you have taken the appropriate classes on how to operate one safely, and have a reasonable understanding of the laws and regulations pertaining to speed, rights of way, etc etc.

In no way is it a right.

Gun ownership, however, IS a right as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby T.M.Ray » Mon 18 Jan 2010 8:04 pm

Ryan 1971- I see you're rather new here on the board, and I would like to say welcome to UCC. This is a great place to learn soooo much info. There are some super educated folks on here.
Concerning your post: although I am a permit holder, I have become a HUGE fan of loaded & charged Open Carry (O/C) and what we have labeled here on UCC as "Casual Carry". I don't know how much you know about O/C, so forgive me if you already know the points I will cover.
I assume that you don't have your permit yet; forgive me if I'm wrong. As Rupper said, having the permit allows you to carry your firearm on PUBLIC school grounds, fully loaded and charged. If you do not have the permit, you can pass through a school zone, but cannot loiter outside a vehicle within 1,000 ft. As you may know, Utah law now allows you to have your weapon in the vehicle loaded without a permit.
Now, with -or- without the permit, you can be still asked to remove your firearm from any private establishment. Understand this: if you are walking into a store and see the "no firearms" sign, and pass through carrying, you're probably not going to go to jail or anything like that. The only thing the purveyor of the establishment can do is ask you to return the firearm to your vehicle or otherwise leave the premises. If you fail to do so and they call the police, they will probably ask you to do the same. About the only thing they can charge you with is trespassing or disturbing the peace. (*IANAL!)
Even with the permit, you still CANNOT have a firearm O/C or C/C in a courthouse or stand-alone (federal) POST OFFICE. Now, if you have a post office "store" like we do in Syracuse, which is inside the city offices, this law does not apply.

DO NOT open-carry your firearm on any TRAX, UTA, or FRONTRUNNER TRAIN without a permit. If you do so, you may end up going to jail. (See my prior post on this) Remember, the LDS Church is on Utah's NO GUNS list. No other churches are currently listed. As you may have seen on the board, there are sometimes issues at Jazz games. That's a 50/50 chance you may get in, may not.

Finally, let me say this, I O/C 95% of the time, almost everywhere. Know what happens? NOTHING. Most people don't even notice, no kidding. 8) I dress nice when I'm out. I have a nice belt and holster that I'm sure keeps my firearm well secured and the trigger covered. In fact, I get asked quite often if I'm a police officer. (others have too, I've read). I reply with a, "no," and then the questions start. Most of the time it's people that want to know the "rules" of having my firearm. I use this moment to politely educate folks, if I have time, and to try to win the minds of folks who may be on the fence of O/C-ing themselves. Others will cover more points I'm sure. I open carry my firearm EVERYWHERE. I goto Wal-Mart, Staples, Chili's, Goldenwest Credit Union and Barnes Bank (RIP). I go to Smith's, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. with NO problems, all the time. It will feel strange for awhile, but you will get used to it. :-) Good Luck !!

P.S. If you have some tough quesitons, ask Divegeek, he is a wealth of information (sorry Shawn, lol)
Last edited by T.M.Ray on Mon 18 Jan 2010 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby Kevin Jensen » Mon 18 Jan 2010 8:42 pm

T.M.Ray wrote:Even with the permit, you still CAN NOT have a firearm O/C or C/C in a court house


I'm not so sure this is the case. While I am certainly not advocating anyone try it out, read the following... Perhaps a new topic of debate?


78A-2-203. Rules -- Right to make -- Limitation -- Security.
(1) Every court of record may make rules, not inconsistent with law, for its own government and the government of its officers; but such rules must neither impose any tax or charge upon any legal proceeding nor give any allowance to any officer for service.
(2) (a) The judicial council may provide, through the rules of judicial administration, for security in or about a courthouse or courtroom, or establish a secure area as prescribed in Section 76-8-311.1.
(b) (i) If the council establishes a secure area under Subsection (2)(a), it shall provide a secure firearms storage area on site so that persons with lawfully carried firearms may store them while they are in the secure area.
(ii) The entity operating the facility with the secure area shall be responsible for the firearms while they are stored in the storage area referred to in Subsection (2)(b)(i).
(iii) The entity may not charge a fee to individuals for storage of their firearms under Subsection (2)(b)(i).
(3) (a) Unless authorized by the rules of judicial administration, any person who knowingly or intentionally possesses a firearm, ammunition, or dangerous weapon within a secure area established by the judicial council under this section is guilty of a third degree felony.
(b) Any person is guilty of violating Section 76-10-306 who transports, possesses, distributes, or sells an explosive, chemical, or incendiary device, as defined by Section 76-10-306, within a secure area, established by the Judicial Council under this section.

78A-1-101. Courts of justice enumerated -- Courts of record enumerated.
(1) The following are the courts of justice of this state:
(a) the Supreme Court;
(b) the Court of Appeals;
(c) the district courts;
(d) the juvenile courts; and
(e) the justice courts.
(2) All courts are courts of record, except the justice courts, which are courts not of record.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby divegeek » Mon 18 Jan 2010 8:46 pm

T.M.Ray wrote:P.S. If you have some tough quesitons, ask Divegeek, he is a wealth of information (sorry Shawn, lol)

The real truth is that I just state my opinions with authority. The less sure I am, the stronger I state them :twisted:

One small clarification: A Utah CFP allows you to carry on ANY school grounds in Utah, public or private. By that I mean that carrying there isn't a crime. Private schools may ask you to leave, though. Public schools can't.

I think that's what you meant, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby itsasecret » Mon 18 Jan 2010 10:13 pm

Since this thread is titled "Rules of OC" I feel obligated to mention this: the campus police at no less than two public Utah universities maintain that OCing is illegal on campus, even with a CWP. It's an open question how the courts might rule if the question is brought before them under the current legal environment.
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Re: Rules of oc

Postby UtahJarhead » Mon 18 Jan 2010 10:23 pm

itsasecret wrote:Since this thread is titled "Rules of OC" I feel obligated to mention this: the campus police at no less than two public Utah universities maintain that OCing is illegal on campus, even with a CWP. It's an open question how the courts might rule if the question is brought before them under the current legal environment.


That being said, so far the AG is on our side on the issue if I remember correctly. He's already put UofU in their place once in the past when they tried to outlaw CC on campus.
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