UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby JoeSparky » Sun 07 Mar 2010 6:51 pm

Major,

You never mentioned whether you provided you DRIVERS LISENCE for this particular opinion enforment officer after you'd provided both your Student ID and your CF permit. BTW--- by my read of the law ( IANAL ) , since you were not driving you had no obligation to have your DL on your person or immediately available AND I have found NO REQUIREMENT that one carry the state of Utah issued CF permit when exercising the options provided---- only that it be issued!

Legally all you need to do was to state your name! (if this is wrong then.... anyone PLEASE ADVISE ME)!
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby MajorNickmo » Sun 07 Mar 2010 7:09 pm

Yeah, I ended up swapping my UVU ID for my DL with the first officer. I think he radioed them into dispatch while I was talking to the second officer...that's another reason I'm filing a GRAMA tomorrow.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby divegeek » Sun 07 Mar 2010 9:07 pm

I think you did a good job in a difficult situation.

I think it's worthwhile to examine exactly what the Disorderly Conduct statute says:

76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.

So there are two categories of disorderly conduct, one I colored blue, the other purple.

The first clearly doesn't apply. The police didn't give you an order to move from a public place and if they did it's not clear to me that it would have been a lawful order, and you didn't create a hazardous condition.

The second is what the officer was citing. He claimed that if you caused annoyance or alarm, you could be cited. But that's not what the law says. It says if you do any of the actions in (i) through (iv) because you intend to cause annoyance or alarm or to recklessly create a risk thereof, then you can be cited.

Where you doing any of (i) through (iv)? You certainly weren't obstructing traffic or making noise, nor were you fighting or engaging in violent or tumultuous behavior. The only thing you could remotely be accused of is engaging in "threatening" behavior -- said behavior being to peaceably carry your firearm in exactly the same way the police officer is, with the exception that you're not wearing a uniform, and he is. So the alleged threatening behavior is uniformless open carry.

Now, the statute also requires that you either intend your uniformless open carry to cause annoyance or alarm, or that it "recklessly" create a risk. Clearly, you didn't intend to cause annoyance or alarm, so all that's left is the "reckless" creation of a risk of annoyance or alarm.

So, to be convicted of disorderly conduct for open carrying, we have to believe that (a) uniformless open carry is "threatening" and (b) it recklessly creates a risk of alarm. I think that a decent attorney could shoot down both of those points.

One point that I'd have tried to make to the officer (and which you've probably thought of in hindsight) is the OCDO motto: A right unexercised is a right lost. The officer was apparently supportive of our rights, but thought that it made more sense to conceal in practice. But if we don't dare exercise a right because of potential negative legal repercussions, do we really have it? I'd say no.

If you're going to continue open carrying on campus, I'd highly recommend putting some numbers in your phone. We have a number of very pro-carry representatives and senators, and there are folks here who have good contacts with them. If you could get the cell number of one or two of them, and then let the officers talk to THEM about it, rather than trying to debate it yourself, I think the situation would turn out very differently. I read about a situation in Boise where an open carrier did this and having a state senator explain the law to the officers was extremely effective.

For that matter, I and many others here have Mark Shurtleff's cell number. I've never called it, but supposedly he's pretty good about answering, and very helpful. I'll send it to you in a PM.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby voorhis » Sun 07 Mar 2010 9:27 pm

Nick-
You did a great job handling this! I only hope I could of handling it as well as you did. Lets hope with this video footage and the AG being notified, that UVU can be set straight according to Utah Laws, so that you or the rest of us who OC on college campuses wont be detained or threatened.

Good Job :thumbsup:
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby cablecutter » Sun 07 Mar 2010 11:52 pm

What can I do to help solve this problem. I go to UVU and I would love to support you Major. Who do I need to send a letter to?
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby Daeyel » Sun 07 Mar 2010 11:53 pm

Handling this is all about attitude.

You can go full on frontal assault mode, and force them into compliance by bringing the full weight of the enforcement structure upon them. By this, I mean the AG with his legal opinions, and the state legislature, with their eminent threats of funding cuts and increased legislatory jurisdiction.

This method creates an adversarial relationship, where they see you and mutter to each other, there goes that (expletive), lets see if we can bust his chops!

Or you can see it through in an educatory manner, with no confrontation, merely education. This one is more likely to end with knowing the officers personally, on a friend basis. This is the method you tried initially, and failed.

Of course, in today's society, the 1st is most often used, because its often the only way a department (or individual) is willing to change. In addition, many people only learn their actual rights after a situation like this, and only then are moved to enact change. Bureaucracy doesn't like to change, things are fine the way they are, and often must be dragged, kicking and screaming into compliance when conditions change.

Look at Utah Jarhead's efforts to get incorrect signage corrected in Ogden. His attempts to get change enacted in a non confrontational manner are getting nowhere. Now he's going to become a major [auto-filtered], and they will be forced, kicking and screaming, to enact the change anyway. Jarhead, if you read this, I hope you point out that this can be done nicely, or it can be done the hard way, with injury to his pride, ego and professional reputation. Cause he's going to look a professional fool when a citizen forces him to do what he should have quickly recognized he was obligated to do.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby Utah_patriot » Mon 08 Mar 2010 8:39 am

Hey good luck keep us posted thanks for sharing this.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby GreenStreet » Mon 08 Mar 2010 10:20 am

gunsfreak4791 wrote:Hey good luck keep us posted thanks for sharing this.


If there is anything any of us can do, let us know. I wouldn't mind showing up to a meeting with the LEOs involved face to face. Especially with the Attorney General and or the Directors of Post Training and the Chief of police at UVU present during the meeting.

I usually carry concealed, but for this meeting I'd get out the biggest hog leg I could strap on, fully loaded, OC of course. :thumbsup:
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby Jon » Mon 08 Mar 2010 11:21 am

Awesome, i'm so glad that you are fighting back and that you have some good support here. I have OCed a few times at UVU when going to visit my wife and I would be outraged if this happened to me. Hopefully this will result in the training of UVU officers to not be morons in the future. Don't give up until you are completely satisfied with the results.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby itsasecret » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:00 pm

JoeSparky wrote:Legally all you need to do was to state your name! (if this is wrong then.... anyone PLEASE ADVISE ME)!


Not exactly. 77-7-15 says, "A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions." In this particular case, since UVU is a GFSZ, the officer almost certainly had probable cause to stop him and inquire if he had been issued a CFP.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby xRapidDavex » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:24 pm

Notice that what you posted says the cop needs reasonable suspicion before demanding more info than your name? The AG has already stated that simply open carrying a firearm is not grounds in and of itself for reasonable suspicion.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby MajorNickmo » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:53 pm

My email to the Chief of Police at UVU and his response is below, which he copied to the top administrative officials including Pres. Holland at UVU.

"Chief Brewer,

My name is Nicholas Moyes and I am a student at UVU.
On Friday March 5, 2010 at around 11:40 AM, I was detained by two of your officers in the Sorenson Student Center, in front of the UVUSA offices...
Before I pursue this any further, please know that I want to give your department every opportunity to rectify this situation. I have posted my account of what occurred on this website and on YouTube:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7775&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Please read through the entire thread, because I gave more details in later posts.

I filed a GRAMA request with your department this afternoon regarding this incident. I am not trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill here, I just want to feel satisfied that all of your officers are educated regarding firearm carrying laws in the State of Utah and that they are taught how to approach the people that exercise those rights, legally, on UVU campus.

KSL has contacted me regarding this issue but before I give an interview, I want to give you a chance to respond to me without involving the press. Again, I do not want to make this a big deal, and would prefer not to blow this out of proportion.

However, I would like to file a formal complaint(s) against the officers involved, please let me know what the proper course of action is to do so.


Thank you for your time,

Nicholas Moyes
ph. #
moyes.nick at gmail.com"



His response:

[email protected]
"The open carrying of firearms on our campus, even by concealed permit holders, is a violation of UVU policy unless I give written approval for such. I have given no such approval either to you or anyone else on this campus. If you are found to be openly carrying a firearm on this campus again you may be subject to arrest and confiscation of your firearm as evidence of the violation as detailed in Utah Revised Statute 76-8-710, Disruption of School Activities. Additionally you may be subject to possible UVU administrative sanctions for policy violation. I advise that you no longer carry your firearm openly."



Hmmm...ok. Sorry guys, I enjoy UVU way too much...concealed carry it is, until we can get this figured out. :-/

KSL just called me, they asked if they could use my name, I told them that I don't want to be the poster child for this just yet, but I think that perhaps the Legislature should consider making the law more explicit when it comes to OC on a K-12 public school and state funded colleges, ie., adding "including Open Carry"
Last edited by MajorNickmo on Mon 08 Mar 2010 3:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby veyec » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:56 pm

Wow! Now I guess we know where the opinion enforcemnt officer got his opinions from!
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby B Cart » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:57 pm

Great Job Major on your encounter! I'm sorry you had to go through that. I also go to UVU and open carry on campus. I don't OC every day (some days I conceal) but I have never had any negative experiences. I have even talked to a couple of the campus police about it without incident. So that's unfortunate you went through that experience, but hopefully we can make it positive by educating those LEOs in the correct way.

Let me know what you would like us to do. I am writing letters as we speak.

Also, Divegeek and a couple people mentioned having AG Shurtleff's phone number along with some other important ones. I would love to have those in case of a bad encounter. I would much appreciate it if someone could PM those to me as well. Thanks!

And I just read the response of the UVU police chief to your letter, and that is a bunch of bull crap! From my understanding, UVU is NOT a private school, therefore they are subject to following the State gun laws, and CANNOT make their own firearms laws and regulations. Am I wrong about that?
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Re: UVU cops detained me for OCing on campus

Postby cablecutter » Mon 08 Mar 2010 2:58 pm

Add fox 13 to the list too
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