Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Please post your real life stories where carrying for self-defense has made a difference.

Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby My Trigger Guard » Fri 29 Jun 2012 8:36 am

When I was 5 years old a dog bit my eye out. Not the dogs fault he was my good old friend. But just that he was old and had cancer tumors in his tail. I accidently stepped on his tail and in reaction he bit me, which would not have been bad but human reaction took over and I pulled back. By doing so I sort of ripped my own eye out.

I had to undergo some pretty intesive plastic surgery plus repairs.. Still to this day a dog does not cuase me any fear Nor would unless they had numbers and size. That doesnt mean that at some point I would not need to use my firearm on the dog, I just would not be in fear. Show a dog fear and your enticing an attack. You have to leave it thinking your stronger then it and it would loose in a fight.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby gravedancer » Fri 29 Jun 2012 9:24 am

Id be much less likely to shoot an aggressive dog if it were just myself I had to worry about, though I might still do so if there was any doubt as to whether or not it had or might have rabies.

When it comes to my own dog, my girlfriend, or my kids being menaced by an aggressive dog though, sorry but the dogs going to lose, every time.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby Xray » Fri 29 Jun 2012 2:06 pm

A small dog in my neighborhood was killed viciously and grotesquely a few months ago by a pitbull in front of several of my neighbors. Several attempts were made to kick the dog, beat it with a shovel, etc., all to no avail. I was not there, but if I could have stopped it by shooting the dog I would have. No question.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby SpringfieldGuy » Tue 10 Jul 2012 7:58 am

Rupper wrote:[quote="gravedancer"My girlfriends little rat dog cost over $3000, not counting the cost of training and things hes had.


Personally, I don't think the cost of your girlfriends dog has anything to do with this. If your girlfriend's life is at risk or she is clearly in danger of serious bodily injury then the law is clear. Take care of the threat.[/quote]

Agreed. Another dog's life under the law as i understand it does not constitute legal use of force against another dog. Dogs under the law as i understand the law are property and not "life". (even though i love my dogs as family) If i'm wrong please correct me. It would be sad to lose one under these circumstances, but would prob not validate using deadly force against another dog.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby Hawk87 » Tue 10 Jul 2012 8:15 am

I don't have time to find the code right now (I can later if you really want me too), but it was posted in another thread that dogs could be shot if then threatened animals with a commercial value, or something like that. In that case, the cost of the dog does matter.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby gravedancer » Tue 10 Jul 2012 9:08 am

Hawk87 wrote:I don't have time to find the code right now (I can later if you really want me too), but it was posted in another thread that dogs could be shot if then threatened animals with a commercial value, or something like that. In that case, the cost of the dog does matter.



Yes, ive researched and posted the code in another thread.....suffice it to say that a dog can be shot if it is "worrying" livestock or domestic animals, or even while being pursued after having done so.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby UtahJarhead » Tue 10 Jul 2012 11:05 am

The code does not specify to whom the animal being harassed or injured belongs to.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby gravedancer » Tue 10 Jul 2012 3:24 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:The code does not specify to whom the animal being harassed or injured belongs to.



Correct.... there is nothing in the code prohibiting me from shooting a dog that was "worrying" someone else (or their domestic animal). I personally would most likely not shoot a dog to protect someone elses dog, but if I saw one attacking another person, I would certainly do so if I could without risk of hitting the person.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby Calebcom » Thu 12 Jul 2012 5:26 pm

The law reads a domestic animal of significant commercial value, a 3k dog sounds like significant value to me, I've bought cattle for much less than that.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby dewittdj » Thu 12 Jul 2012 9:10 pm

Firing into the ground is just as bad as firing into the air. Discharging the firearm is considered use of deadly force in this or similar situations. If you weren't in fear for your life, attempting to stop a forcible felony, or aggrevated rape, sodomy, sodomy of a child, .... and the list goes on (see use of force below) then you shouldn't have discharged the firearm, whether into the air, into the ground, or deliberately missing the target.

You'd be hard pressed to establish the immediacy of the danger if you first discharged your firearm into the ground, intentionally miss the target, or into the air.

Code: Select all
Utah Criminal and Traffic Code
Justification of Force
76-2-402.  Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.

(1)  A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
...

(3)   A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).

(4)(a) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Person, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.
   (b) Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony.
   (c) Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.

(5)   In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
   (a) the nature of the danger;
   (b) the immediacy of the danger;
   (c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
   (d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
   (e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship

76-2-407.  Deadly force in defense of persons on real property.
A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury against another in his defense of persons on real property other than his habitation if:
   (a) he is in lawful possession of the real property;
   (b) he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's trespass onto the real property;
   (c) the trespass is made or attempted by use of force or in a violent and tumultuous manner; and
   (d)(i) the person reasonably believes that the trespass is attempted or made for the purpose of committing violence against any person on the real property and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent personal violence; or
      (ii)  the person reasonably believes that the trespass is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a forcible felony as defined in Section 76-2-402 that poses imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to a person on the real property and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of that forcible felony.


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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby cdenbow » Sat 21 Jul 2012 2:32 pm

quychang wrote:When I posted earlier about shooting the owner, it was obviously tongue in cheek....but not very. While the dogs are doing the damage, and are your immediate concern, it's not their fault their stupid owner can't follow rules. If you're going to own dogs at all, and particularly breeds like Rotties or Pit Bulls that have a bad rap (not entirely undeserved), then by god you should be held responsible for controlling them. My wife has one of those rodents you're speaking of that got attached. She's a pure bred Papillion with 4 akc agility titles and a glowing future in the sport. Not to mention that she's very well loved. One bite from one of those dogs could kill her at worst, or at least end her competitive career. I promise you, my hands would have been empty and my gun would be cocked and locked before the dogs got to her. I would have been yelling at the top of my lungs at the dogs, facing them down, and firing a warning shot into the air in order to try and get the owners attention. That would have taken until the dogs were about half way to my dog, then I'd have been putting them down. And I'm a dog lover. I'd feel worse about shooting those dogs, than I would about shooting the sad excuse for a human that put me in that situation. How confident am I that I would do that? Pretty much 100%. I've played that same scenario out in my head a thousand times. We have a pit bull that lives next door. Nice friendly dog, with people. He's already chased and bitten at least two neighborhood dogs. All because the owner is a dumb kid that doesn't keep an eye on him. It's friendly with my Border Collie, but she's near his size, if not weight. But if he ever goes for the Pap, he'll get one attempt from me to turn him....yes I know the dog and think I can, but only one attempt. He will not get to the little dog, at least not breathing.

My Border Collie is off leash in my yard, she's obedience trained and stays right with me. In a strange situation, like camping, she's leashed. For her protection, not for anyone elses....oh and it happens to be the rule as well, at least in the camp ground.

As I mentioned, I'd be speaking to camp ground host or ranger, and would make a special stop in Kamas at the ranger station to lodge another complaint. Though I imagine if I did have to fire my gun, they would come to me to see what the situation was.

Mel


If you are serious about talking to the Kamas Ranger Station, I would advise against it. They are pretty anti gun, I know first hand. My wife is a ranger for that district (however she is not one of the anti gun staffers) and I could tell you things, that as a gun owner would irritate you just like a little annoying Nat. If you have any questions in regard to the district, its policies, etc., you are welcome to message me and if I don't know how to answer your question, obviously I know someone who does.
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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby quychang » Sat 21 Jul 2012 3:56 pm

If you are serious about talking to the Kamas Ranger Station, I would advise against it. They are pretty anti gun, I know first hand. My wife is a ranger for that district (however she is not one of the anti gun staffers) and I could tell you things, that as a gun owner would irritate you just like a little annoying Nat. If you have any questions in regard to the district, its policies, etc., you are welcome to message me and if I don't know how to answer your question, obviously I know someone who does.


The stress on my complaint would have nothing to do with guns, it would be heavily aimed at people not following posted rules, such as keeping dogs on leash. We were camped at Washington Lake a couple years ago, and a dog came running out out of it's campsite, obviously to check us out, not attacking. My wife in her best dog trainer voice yelled "NO" at the dog, and put herself between her dog and the on coming dog. The owner came out of camp, madder than a wet hen that anyone would DARE yell at her dog..

Let's say it didn't get really ugly, but my wife doesn't back down, she dressed the woman down for not leashing her dog, regardless of it's temperament, and told her she was lucky the dog hadn't attacked. They walked away irritated at each other, but nothing more. Yes, we registered a complaint with the campground host, we didn't stop in Kamas that trip because it was Sunday and they were closed. This was before I carried, so guns wouldn't have been an issue.

We've also registered complaints in Kamas towards a campground host that was a real harridan over circumstances that didn't warrant it. She gave us a "Written notice", which of course is not a ticket, just something they're going to turn in to the rangers. This was over following a rangers directions to use the over flow parking at a campground for our horse trailers. She threw a fit, and was rude almost beyond belief. We stopped in Kamas, they tore up the notice and told us we weren't the first to lodge complaints against the woman.

Point is, we've been treated well by both the rangers and the ranger station in that district. I would expect them to continue to support following the rules. But of course, if there's been changes in management, that could all have changed. Thanks for the heads up.

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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby quychang » Sun 22 Jul 2012 6:47 am

You'd be hard pressed to establish the immediacy of the danger if you first discharged your firearm into the ground, intentionally miss the target, or into the air.


It would be pretty hard to prove that in the heat of the moment, a miss was intentional. I'll freely admit firing into the air is a bad idea, after being chastised I gave it a lot of thought, and it's certainly unnecessarily dangerous. One round right into the ground directly in front of the animal could turn it, and maybe I'm just a bad shot :dunno: . The dog would be closer for the second round, so it would be easier to hit.

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Re: Came really close to using my weapon this weekend....

Postby pamudy » Fri 27 Jul 2012 12:29 pm

Thanks for posting your story. I've since talked with my kids about ducking, covering and staying out of the way if something attacked. I was glad to start the conversation with a story about a dog attacking, rather than a person but was able to finish with that, without any fear.
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