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help is truly minutes away, except when......

12K views 31 replies 16 participants last post by  bagpiper 
#1 ·
I had jut become divorced and was living in the neighborhood I currently reside in. I was unable to sleep that July night and was u.p at 2am watching some quality TV. I heard voices outside and saw with my own two 20/20 eyes, two guys breaking into my car and athering up all my work tools. I phoned 911 and was told by the dispatcher to get a real good description and she would have officers there shortly. I told her to hurry and she then informed me that ALL officers were on another emergency. I, very inrritatedly replied thank you and hung up. Grabbing my 9mm and hitting the door I yelled for them to show me their hands or I would shoot them. They turned and looked terrified. I then phoned the police again and told her that they could take their time and aught her up to date on the situation. LEO's move fast when they hear gun. BGs got arrested I went to bed. Never have had to draw or handle my gun off the range since and I hope I never have to again.
 
#2 ·
This reminds me of a story I read once.
http://www.seniorresource.com/buck.htm ( and many other sites)

HOW TO CALL THE POLICE
Roger Gresse, an elderly man, from Zanesville, OH, was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed. Roger opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.

He phoned the police, who asked, "Is someone in your house?"

He said "No," but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me."

Then the police dispatcher said. "All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available."

Roger said, "Okay."

He hung up the phone and counted to 30.

Then he phoned the police again.

"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I just shot them," and he hung up.

Within five minutes, six police cars, a SWAT team, a helicopter, two fire trucks, a paramedic, and an ambulance showed up at the Gresse residence, and caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the policemen said to Roger, "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

Roger said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
 
#6 ·
That actually happened a few years ago in the Canton, Ohio area.
A woman and her adult daughter called 911 and said that the daughter's ex-boyfriend was beating on their door, screaming, and shouting that he was going to kill them.
A few minutes later the woman called 911 again and said not to hurry. The man had broken down the door and the daughter had filled his chest with lead from a .22 rifle.
He was declared DATS.
No charges were filed.
 
#7 ·
jktseug said:
This reminds me of a story I read once.
http://www.seniorresource.com/buck.htm ( and many other sites)

HOW TO CALL THE POLICE
Roger Gresse, an elderly man, from Zanesville, OH, was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed. Roger opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.

He phoned the police, who asked, "Is someone in your house?"

He said "No," but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me."

Then the police dispatcher said. "All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available."

Roger said, "Okay."

He hung up the phone and counted to 30.

Then he phoned the police again.

"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I just shot them," and he hung up.

Within five minutes, six police cars, a SWAT team, a helicopter, two fire trucks, a paramedic, and an ambulance showed up at the Gresse residence, and caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the policemen said to Roger, "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

Roger said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
This is awesome! I hope I am this clever one day.
 
#10 ·
I don't know, citizens arrest may allow you to at least have your weapon visible? If it is your property that you are on I would think you can protect your property however, there may be, and probably are, some stupid laws saying you can't? It's late and I've had a long day with a friend from out of town so I am not doing any research tonight.
 
#11 ·
76-2-401. Justification as defense -- When allowed.
(1) Conduct which is justified is a defense to prosecution for any offense based on the conduct. The defense of justification may be claimed:
(a) when the actor's conduct is in defense of persons or property under the circumstances described in Sections 76-2-402 through 76-2-406 of this part;
76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the person or a third person against another person's imminent use of unlawful force.
(b) A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the person or a third person as a result of another person's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) (a) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if the person:
(i) initially provokes the use of force against the person with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(ii) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(iii) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.
(b) For purposes of Subsection (2)(a)(iii) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(i) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(ii) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(a)(iii).
(4) (a) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Person, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.
(b) Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony.
(c) Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
76-6-202. Burglary.
(1) An actor is guilty of burglary who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or any portion of a building with intent to commit:
(a) a felony;
(b) theft;
(c) an assault on any person;
(d) lewdness, a violation of Section 76-9-702;
(e) sexual battery, a violation of Section 76-9-702.1;
(f) lewdness involving a child, in violation of Section 76-9-702.5; or
(g) voyeurism under Section 76-9-702.7.
(2) Burglary is a third degree felony unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a second degree felony.
(3) A violation of this section is a separate offense from any of the offenses listed in Subsections (1)(a) through (g), and which may be committed by the actor while in the building.
So as I read the code, if they are in your building it can be a defense. As per 76-6-204, Breaking into a vehicle alone is only a misdemeanor and thus is not grounds for use of deadly force in defense of the property, but if the vehicle is parked in a closed garage, they have entered a building and thus you may be able to claim fear of life and defend the property.

Also see this thread here on the Castle Doctrine
 
#13 ·
Not sure I see th point of pointing outthat the story was from Ohio, as the pertinant answers about the legality of defensive acts is based on Utah where we live.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
 
#14 ·
DaKnife said:
Not sure I see th point of pointing outthat the story was from Ohio, as the pertinant answers about the legality of defensive acts is based on Utah where we live.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
Because Utah law isn't necessarily the same as Ohio law. Pointing out Utah law on an Ohio story doesn't really matter for the story. It may work for a situation here, but not there.

(Sent from iSnurd)
 
#15 ·
But the question about the legality of using a weapon in regards to a car refers to Utah law as that is where UCC and most it's readers are located.
 
#17 ·
As far as I understand the law CFP is for the protection of people, not possessions. So if the weapon was fired in defense of the belongings in the vehicle then you could get in a lot of legal trouble. Which to me just means that you make sure and tell 911 that you have a gun while on the phone. Hoping for the cops to come faster.
 
#18 ·
I had no cfp, nor do I now. I didnt fire my weapon. I never wanted to. I just wanted the bg's out of my vehicle. I understand the legal backlash that can occur from doing such a thing. Anyone who has ever called pleasant grove police for any reason knows that unless you are at one of the two walkers gas stations you are gonna be a while waiting for "help". My vehicle and my tools in it are my lively hood. Take them and you might as well take my house, car (obviously), food and my very ability to maintain my meager life. Not gonna happen without a little fight from me.

Again, I am well aware of the legal consequences that may come from such actions. I am also all to familiar with what homeless feels like. I will take my chances on my property any day.
 
#19 ·
meuxse said:
I had no cfp, nor do I now. I didnt fire my weapon. I never wanted to. I just wanted the bg's out of my vehicle. I understand the legal backlash that can occur from doing such a thing. Anyone who has ever called pleasant grove police for any reason knows that unless you are at one of the two walkers gas stations you are gonna be a while waiting for "help". My vehicle and my tools in it are my lively hood. Take them and you might as well take my house, car (obviously), food and my very ability to maintain my meager life. Not gonna happen without a little fight from me.

Again, I am well aware of the legal consequences that may come from such actions. I am also all to familiar with what homeless feels like. I will take my chances on my property any day.
:thumbsup:

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
#20 ·
Officer the car thieves had what appeared to be a gun or knive in their hands, fearing for my life I pulled my gun took cover and told them to drop their weapons! What they had no weapons? Oh, so that silver object was my Crecent Wrench? Dang I thought it was a gun, it's dark out here, heck he was pointing it right at me. Whats that officer? You would have shot him if that was you? Oh I would be careful that ole Sam Gil is after Police involved shootings, and he will have your badge. Anyways.....
Is that how it happened? If not Pepper Spray them, taser them, if you want to stop them. Or beat them down, the State law states, you can protect your property with force "other than Deadly force."
Or get a good description and follow them from a safe distance. Or File a claim and get some new tools you been wanting anyways. Just don't pull your gun to protect your property, if there are more then 2 people present & no cameras around no anti-gun nieghbors looking out the window. Wait did I just say that out loud? Ha ha ha
 
#21 ·
You really should be able to defend your personal property with deadly force. Every time they steal something you own, they are stealing a certain amount of your life that it took to earn that amount of money to purchase the property. And you are not going to get that time back.
Stealing someone's ability to make a living (tools)....If I was on a jury I would not convict anyone that acted to defend their property.
 
#22 ·
RustyShackleford said:
You really should be able to defend your personal property with deadly force. Every time they steal something you own, they are stealing a certain amount of your life that it took to earn that amount of money to purchase the property. And you are not going to get that time back.
Stealing someone's ability to make a living (tools)....If I was on a jury I would not convict anyone that acted to defend their property.
well if you shot someone over tools (and that was the defense) i would convict you every time... property can be replaced and i agree with the no deadly force... if you did that in the jury you would not be following the judges instructions cause in his instructions he would tell you the law and sum up the evidence for you.
 
#23 ·
faydee said:
RustyShackleford said:
You really should be able to defend your personal property with deadly force. Every time they steal something you own, they are stealing a certain amount of your life that it took to earn that amount of money to purchase the property. And you are not going to get that time back.
Stealing someone's ability to make a living (tools)....If I was on a jury I would not convict anyone that acted to defend their property.
well if you shot someone over tools (and that was the defense) i would convict you every time... property can be replaced and i agree with the no deadly force... if you did that in the jury you would not be following the judges instructions cause in his instructions he would tell you the law and sum up the evidence for you.
So..... let's just say that I beat them to a bloody pulp but don't actually kill them? Deadly force? Would you convict me of a crime then? Keep in mind I am not a small individual. Where do I get to protect my property and not be charged with a crime? I will never sit by helplessly and let what is mine be taken from me while I watch. Insurance may replace some of it, what about what is not replaced and therefore prohibits or hinders my ability to work to sustain my life? They say, "an eye for an eye leaves us all blind". I would like to think people would get the hint after a few times and stop taking from others no matter what the object was. I know I like my "eyes".
 
#24 ·
At this point.... "Officer, the thieves/thief attacked me and I was forced to defend myself. Yes, I'd love to make a statement AFTER I've consulted with my attorney. Here is his business card and I've already contacted him!"

This is after the thief draws back with the heavy blunt object (my adjustable wrench/hammer/impact tool) and I feared for my life or serious injury!
 
#25 ·
faydee said:
RustyShackleford said:
You really should be able to defend your personal property with deadly force. Every time they steal something you own, they are stealing a certain amount of your life that it took to earn that amount of money to purchase the property. And you are not going to get that time back.
Stealing someone's ability to make a living (tools)....If I was on a jury I would not convict anyone that acted to defend their property.
well if you shot someone over tools (and that was the defense) i would convict you every time... property can be replaced and i agree with the no deadly force... if you did that in the jury you would not be following the judges instructions cause in his instructions he would tell you the law and sum up the evidence for you.
There is this little thing called Jury nullification that trumps All Judge's instruction and/or Laws. It is in our Constitution.
 
#26 ·
Judge's instructions mean nothing. Your sole single job as a juror is to decide if the person in question did something deserving of punishment by the public. If that means you must decide something directly against the instructions, then that's what you do.
 
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