Hands still shaking

Please post your real life stories where carrying for self-defense has made a difference.

Re: Hands still shaking

Postby Rottie » Sun 02 Dec 2012 11:08 am

Utah_patriot wrote:...By the way you did nothing wrong don't feed the hatred of others on the form...


Mr Ogden, I think you did a lot wrong. Having said that you probably made the best decision you could have at the time under the stress you were feeling, but it doesn't mean you did the right thing. The value in this forum is that you will find support and beneficial criticism that will cause you to re-think your actions so you can handle it better in the future if it ever happens again. I personally appreciate that this forum is not just a bunch of high fives and chest bumps when we have the opportunity to explore situations like these.

I along with previous posters feel you had several better options. The semi had enough room to move over into the slow lane so I aussume you had that option at some point as well. When the semi came up next to you and became confrontational you could have rolled up your window. When he began swerving into your lane you could have slowly applied your brake and gotten out of his way, especially since he did it 3 times. You were under no obligation to keep pace with him while he verbally acosted you and endangered you and others with his driving. You could have also noted the name of the company and or license plate to pass along to the Police.

At least those are the personal take aways for me from your sharing this particular experience and allowing others to share their perspectives. I also appreciate the previous post pointing out that had you shot him, he could have lost control and injured or killed many others (a semi going 70 mph can do a lot of damage), and if that would have happened that is where your trouble begins not ends. I play the "what if" game with myself often for this very reason, to explore the law of unintended consequences of actions I may have to take in the future. To be clear I am not criticizing you as a person, I recognize that when fight or flight kicks in, it pushes logical reasoning out of the way. Thanks for sharing your experinece and letting me armchair quarter back for a minute. It has given me a lot to think about this morning. Practice defensive driving before defensive shooting, and don't dismiss constructive criticism as "hatred from others". Thanks for being brave enough to share this experience and strong enough to not take offence where none is intended.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby dewittdj » Sun 02 Dec 2012 12:40 pm

+1
:agree: 100%
I particularly like and do the same with the following:
I play the "what if" game with myself often for this very reason, to explore the law of unintended consequences of actions I may have to take in the future.

Every time I venture into public, the what if game starts, so much so that I don't think about it as it runs in the background (pure multi-tasking):
Avenues of escape?
Best cover/concealment?
Who's carrying?
Who's scanning the crowd?, e.g. who are the sheep and who are the wolves?
Any guardian angels? (See General Mattis' (USMC) policy adopted by Leon Panetta).
Any choke points, dead ends, or kill zones?
Where would a bad guy(s) set up for maximum devastation?
Which way is the main crowd flowing? Eddy currents/branch currents?

... all takes place with a couple of quick scans.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby jktseug » Sun 02 Dec 2012 10:25 pm

It is interesting to read through the way some people think. A lot of people are very supportive of the stand your ground laws. They don't want to be required to retreat from a threat. Yet when it comes up, most people will bring that up. Why didn't you leave is brought up a lot in many different ways. Or why were you in that type of location.

There is always things that we can do to avoid conflicts. We could stay home, have someone else do our shopping and live a secluded life. We also can go out and take risks. Don't let people push you into feeling bad about doing something that you felt was necessary.

Each situation is different and we all have to take that into account.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby divegeek » Sun 02 Dec 2012 10:48 pm

jktseug wrote:A lot of people are very supportive of the stand your ground laws. They don't want to be required to retreat from a threat. Yet when it comes up, most people will bring that up. Why didn't you leave is brought up a lot in many different ways. Or why were you in that type of location.

I don't see any conflict between those two.

I absolutely will try to escape in any way I possibly can.

On the other hand, I do not want the law to require me to prove that I tried everything I could to escape. What if I overlooked an option? What if I noticed it but felt that it wasn't really feasible, but the 12 armchair quarterbacks at my trial, with the luxury of hours to debate the point, disagree?

The law should be tilted quite strongly in favor of allowing self-defense against unlawful aggressors. Those who don't want to get shot by a citizen defending themselves can avoid it by not being aggressors. That doesn't change the fact that it's far, far better to avoid the situation wherever possible (consistent with living a reasonable life, as you were saying).
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby althor » Mon 03 Dec 2012 7:29 am

To try and relate 'stand your ground' laws and driving on the freeway doesn't even make sense. Do you 'stand your ground' when the vehicle in front of you makes an emergency stop? Do you 'stand your ground' when an inattentive motorist changes lanes into yours while next to you? Do you 'stand your ground' when the traffic slows down due to rush hour? Why would you 'stand your ground' in the OP's situation. What he did was absolutely the wrong thing to do in my opinion, especially considering the lack of attention to the rest of his surroundings that was the likely result.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby Rottie » Mon 03 Dec 2012 8:32 pm

I have to admit that I agree with stand your ground principles and laws, but I also recognize that they do nothing to absolve me of all of the consequences of my actions. Here is an overly creative example but just trying to have fun making my point. lets just say that on my way home from work I stop in at the local gas station to pump gas. I walk inside to pay only to have Jose Cuervo and Jack Daniels follow me in to rob the store and everyone in it at gunpoint. I choose to stand my ground. With lighting fast shooting skills I fire killing Jack because he pointed his gun at me and I turn to engage Jose who has already fired at me once but missed because he can hardly walk a straight line let alone shoot one. I use my awesome gun slinging skills and pop Jose in the head killing him but the shot is a clean pass through and it strikes miss Daisy hiding behind the potato chips. The coroner comes to get Jose and Jack and the ambulance comes for miss Daisy. While driving miss Daisy to the hospital she dies. While I may be justified in killing Jack Daniels and Jose Cuervo, what about my responsibility for the death of miss Daisy? Unfortunately for me, I don't get a say in what level my responsibility is and depending on the DA, I could be criminally charged with any number of things. Even If I am not criminally charged, miss Daisy's family is now suing me for wrongful death.

While not a perfect match, the principles of what Mr Oden could have been facing are similar. If he would have fired and killed the truck driver, and the trucker lost control killing others, he would still have some responsibility for those deaths and would not be given the luxury by the DA to determine how or for what he is responsible. Even if not criminally charged, he would still be at risk of a wrongful death suit. If my children or spouse were the unintended victims of a situation like above, I would be bringing a wrongful death suit!
I learned early on in my hunters safety course and in every other professional firearms course I have ever had to be aware of your target and what is beyond it. Too often we think of this only in terms of targets rather than in terms of liabilities. While we may be justified in standing our ground, it doesn't mean we should ignore other and better options. I am not willing to do Mr ogden the disservice of not helping him consider the situation from a liabilities perspective in the hopes that it is of some benefit to him and others. I am also not being critical of him as a person or for the decision he made under stress, but if we are honest with him and ourselves, there were many better options.I know his willingness to share has helped me re-affirm what I would do. I have nothig but respect for him for that. You can bet that if I ever have occasion to pull my weapon again, my post will be titled "what did I do wrong and how can I do better." There is a lot of knowlege on this forum and I for one enjoy learning from the jury of my peers.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby Daeyel » Tue 04 Dec 2012 4:55 pm

althor wrote:Do you 'stand your ground' when an inattentive motorist changes lanes into yours while next to you?


Absolutely. I do not have time to check if the next lane is clear. If I swerve and hit someone else, guess what? It becomes my fault, damages, injuries and all, while the guy who really caused the accident drives on. No, I am standing my ground, and we'll deal with his idiocy and the financials later.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby althor » Tue 04 Dec 2012 5:36 pm

Daeyel wrote:
althor wrote:Do you 'stand your ground' when an inattentive motorist changes lanes into yours while next to you?


Absolutely. I do not have time to check if the next lane is clear. If I swerve and hit someone else, guess what? It becomes my fault, damages, injuries and all, while the guy who really caused the accident drives on. No, I am standing my ground, and we'll deal with his idiocy and the financials later.

Because braking is obviously not an option...

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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby drake3 » Thu 21 Feb 2013 1:02 pm

This has kind of happened to me before.
I was in the car with my family. Wife in the front seat 2 kids in the back. Heading north on I15 past Ogden coming up on Smith and Edwards, about 2 miles from the S&E Exit. Traffic was a parking lot, they had the right hand lane closed about 20 feet After the off ramp. I live in brigham so I was just going to get off at the exit and take 89.

As I pull into the right lane and start to make my way to the exit Miller meat packing Truck pulled into my lane so close to hitting me if I would not have swerved off the rode into the dirt he would have.
I pulled back on to the road “ I just figured he did not see me:” he pulled back into the left lane. And I tried to go past him again Same thing into my lane he goes coming less than a foot from hitting me.

I have my family in the car

I just stayed back drove 4 miles an hour with traffic to the exit

My cell was dead unfortunately
In hindsight I would have got some type of information and called afterwards.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby D-FIN » Thu 21 Feb 2013 10:08 pm

I would have least got the truck number and called Miller Meats and made a complaint later.
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Re: Hands still shaking

Postby BrassChucker » Thu 21 Feb 2013 10:21 pm

drake3 wrote:...they had the right hand lane closed about 20 feet After the off ramp. I live in brigham so I was just going to get off at the exit and take 89.

As I pull into the right lane and start to make my way to the exit Miller meat packing Truck pulled into my lane so close to hitting me ...
...I pulled back on to the road “ I just figured he did not see me:” he pulled back into the left lane. And I tried to go past him again Same thing into my lane he goes coming less than a foot from hitting me...


This is somewhat common trucker behavior when there is a lane closure. They take it upon themselves to force everyone to move into single file early so the traffic will smooth out and speed up more quickly. I used to see it a lot when I commuted to SLC. But usually they pair up and one will ride in the right hand lane, one in the left. They only try to crush your car when you attempt to pass them in the emergency lane. Which I've seen many times. :disgusted:

If you had caught it on camera you could have him arrested and charged, it's way beyond reckless driving.
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