1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Learn of places to obtain training. Carrying concealed is not enough. You must know how to use it. Ask questions about strategy and the best way to handle situations. CFP Instructors: Please feel free to post your contact information here so people can sign up for your courses.

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby jktseug » Sat 29 Sep 2012 6:19 pm

Zacharia wrote:I feel like i have to ask, why the requirement for bringing a gun and ammo? Many people get their permit before their gun or without intentions of ever carrying.

I think its great to have a shoot afterwards but i don't understand why its in the requirements and not optional or a "bring money for ammo for anything you would like to try out and we will offer an assortment of guns for you to try" type of thing; when the state of Utah doesn't require it and that's what this is really all about.


I wondered this as well, and it might deter those that don't have a gun yet, or might be afraid of shooting.
"Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy."
"There is no such thing as luck; there is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe."
Robert A. Heinlein
User avatar
jktseug
Expert Marksman
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed 09 May 2012 3:42 pm

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby Korben88 » Sat 29 Sep 2012 7:09 pm

Even though Utah does not require passing a live fire test Dave like to include it in his classes. Since this is is his baby, that's what we are doing. I will bringing loaner guns, and i'm sure others will too for anyone who doesn't yet have one.

Sent from my SGH-T759 using Tapatalk 2
Utah CFP instructor ~ NRA Pistol Instructor ~ NRA Rifle Instructor

http://www.aegisfirearmsinstruction.com
http://www.facebook.com/aegisfirearmsinstruction
User avatar
Korben88
Sniper
 
Posts: 1576
Joined: Mon 22 Mar 2010 6:59 pm
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby Zacharia » Sat 29 Sep 2012 7:12 pm

So will applications only be signed after live fire? Or is it additional training included in the class?
User avatar
Zacharia
Sniper
 
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon 14 Dec 2009 12:05 pm
Location: Ogden, UT

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Sat 29 Sep 2012 7:32 pm

Zacharia wrote:So will applications only be signed after live fire? Or is it additional training included in the class?

If by signed, you mean signed by the instructor then, provided enough instructors show up, the certification stamp and instructors' signature will occur after the range portion of the training.

Possible scenario--
The first relay completes their course of fire, retrieve their targets and go to get stamped and signed while the second relay places their targets and commences firing when the line goes hot.

It isn't meant to be a precision shoot. The student is demonstrating the safe handling, loading, firing and unloading of a handgun. Chances are that I won't personally know any of the 100+ shooters and therefore, can't ethically certify them until I witness them in a similar situation. I'm assuming UCC instructors who volunteer to assist are of the same mindset.
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Sat 29 Sep 2012 7:44 pm

jktseug wrote:
Zacharia wrote:I feel like i have to ask, why the requirement for bringing a gun and ammo? Many people get their permit before their gun or without intentions of ever carrying.
I think its great to have a shoot afterwards but i don't understand why its in the requirements and not optional or a "bring money for ammo for anything you would like to try out and we will offer an assortment of guns for you to try" type of thing; when the state of Utah doesn't require it and that's what this is really all about.

I wondered this as well, and it might deter those that don't have a gun yet, or might be afraid of shooting.

You are correct. The range portion is not a State requirement. It is a "DeWitt" requirement.

One of the questions that we will ask the student, during the pre-registration, is whether or not they possess a handgun. If they do not, then they will have the option of using one provided by the instructors. Most likely they will be shooting a .22 or 9mm semi-auto and will have to pay a small ammo fee.

Korben and a few others have offered to bring handguns for those who do not posses any.

The training course is being offered at no cost. This does not mean that the instructors are going to want to go for out of personal out-of-pocket expenses to cover those students without access to a handgun.

The ammo and range fees are costs the students will have to incur.

Perhaps you have a better idea? :raisedbrow:
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby Zacharia » Sat 29 Sep 2012 7:57 pm

dewittdj wrote: Chances are that I won't personally know any of the 100+ shooters and therefore, can't ethically certify them until I witness them in a similar situation. I'm assuming UCC instructors who volunteer to assist are of the same mindset.


Thanks for the answer!

Unfortunately were on two different pages. I think its the instructors job to present the material; not pass judgement on who should be denied the right to a cfp even though they meet the states requirements. If this part changes I would be happy to help promote the event and volunteer my time for picture taking, loan my guns for others to try out, ect... but in my mind this is a perfect example of the road to purgatory being paved with good intentions.

Best regards and I hope this service your providing helps arm more Utahns; I just really really hope it doesn't deny anyone the right to self protection.
User avatar
Zacharia
Sniper
 
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon 14 Dec 2009 12:05 pm
Location: Ogden, UT

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Sat 29 Sep 2012 8:47 pm

Zacharia wrote:
dewittdj wrote: Chances are that I won't personally know any of the 100+ shooters and therefore, can't ethically certify them until I witness them in a similar situation. I'm assuming UCC instructors who volunteer to assist are of the same mindset.

Thanks for the answer!

Unfortunately we're on two different pages. I think its the instructor's job to present the material; not pass judgement on who should be denied the right to a cfp even though they meet the state's requirements. If this part changes I would be happy to help promote the event and volunteer my time for picture taking, loan my guns for others to try out, etc... but in my mind this is a perfect example of the road to purgatory being paved with good intentions.

Best regards and I hope this service your providing helps arm more Utahns; I just really really hope it doesn't deny anyone the right to self protection.

Actually, we're in different books. This event is an example of a meritocracy. To attend, you need to meet certain requirements, e.g. "earn the right to attend." You don't have to attend. Not attending does not mean that you won't have other opportunities to get a permit, just different requirements, like, perhaps a fee for the training?

I, personally, don't feel that we should have to get a permit to exercise our constitutional right. It just happens to be the law of the State of Utah. I do feel that one should have proper training before operating dangerous machinery or tools to include driving a car and carrying a loaded firearm.

Instructors have obligations. This is not a job. We are volunteers incurring the cost of educating and equipping ourselves to provide the MINIMUM training required by the State of Utah prior to the issuance of a CFP. Some instructors charge high enough fees to quickly reimburse their original expenses. Others charge minimal fees in order to reach a larger audience and provide access to permits to those who wouldn't otherwise be afforded the opportunity. We are encouraged to add additional training and even a range portion. It is not a requirement to do so, only a suggestion on the part of the BCI CFP Instructor training staff.

We do not pass judgment on who should be granted or denied a CFP. Granted, if there is a student is in one of my classes who demonstrates that they are a threat to society, then I will not certify them. This does not deny them a CFP, it simply means that I haven't certified them. They can go elsewhere and get certified. I, on the other hand, will contact BCI and inform them of my concerns and provide them with the student data. It is up to BCI to determine whether or not to grant them a CFP.

I'm curious, how does a student, whom you do not know, demonstrate safe gun handling skills without a gun? Perhaps the same way as a driver's ed student would demonstrate safe driving skills without a car?
:wink:

As a concealed firearm instructor you must make certain that all applicants who attend your course receive proper in-person training within the guidelines prescribed by law. The Bureau has collected the following information to assist you in preparing or adding to your course outline. This curriculum is the minimum training required by the Bureau and must be provide to all applicants for a concealed firearm permit as required in U.C.A. § 53-5-704(9). The Bureau supports instructors adding any additional firearms training and material, including a live fire exercise. If there are any questions, do not hesitate to contact the Bureau of Criminal Identification at 801-965-4445.
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby ThBrtmn » Sat 29 Sep 2012 9:29 pm

dewittdj
Can you talk to Nevada and tell them that Utah CWP Holders ARE receiving Range time for certification. :wink: Blasted Harry Reid Country I tell ya.

I remember when I got my CCW at the Salt Palace back in 99 when they held the gun shows there. I remember that my range time was Picking up a gun, simulating loading it, Pointed it at a target on the wall and pulling the trigger, unloading it setting it back on the table...SAFELY. Although I had guns and knew how to handle them... range time would have been fun.

Granted that was then and you could still get the permit with such actions today. I see range time as a benefit especially in a FREE CCW/CFP class. Will help in letting those that close their eyes and flinch when they pull the trigger expecting the BANG, get a little more one on one to help them feel a littel more comfortable.

By the way D, it might do well to put a TIP jar in the class somewhere. :thumbsup:
~Bart
ThBrtmn
Marksman
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue 24 Jul 2012 11:04 am

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Sat 29 Sep 2012 10:02 pm

When I was getting my permit, Utah was toying with the idea of adding range time as a requirement. I decided at that time that I would add range time to my classes. All of my former students have had range time and if the state ever has a range requirement then I can contact BCI and have them update all of my student records to reflect that they have met the range requirement, eliminating the need for them to get recertified.
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby Zacharia » Sun 30 Sep 2012 7:56 am

Biting my tongue in an effort to not derail your thread.

Good luck with the event!
User avatar
Zacharia
Sniper
 
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon 14 Dec 2009 12:05 pm
Location: Ogden, UT

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Sun 30 Sep 2012 8:29 am

Zacharia wrote:Biting my tongue in an effort to not derail your thread.
Good luck with the event!

:thumbup: :thumbup:
Thanks!
I appreciate the display of self-control. Perhaps you can start a new thread on the topic of CFP instruction that includes mandatory range time vs. instruction that does not.

The issue has been debated several times in threads posted here. The lines are clearly drawn and fairly evenly divided among the instructors. On a side note, I've never had a student indicate that they did not enjoy having a live range session. These comments came from both experienced and inexperienced shooters. The benefits outweighed the inconvenience and infringement on their time and "rights."
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby sypher » Sun 30 Sep 2012 12:39 pm

dewittdj wrote:
Zacharia wrote:Biting my tongue in an effort to not derail your thread.
Good luck with the event!

:thumbup: :thumbup:
Thanks!
I appreciate the display of self-control. Perhaps you can start a new thread on the topic of CFP instruction that includes mandatory range time vs. instruction that does not.

The issue has been debated several times in threads posted here. The lines are clearly drawn and fairly evenly divided among the instructors. On a side note, I've never had a student indicate that they did not enjoy having a live range session. These comments came from both experienced and inexperienced shooters. The benefits outweighed the inconvenience and infringement on their time and "rights."


Who would complain about more shooting :dancing: ? Isn't that why we are all here :mrgreen: ?
Back to the thread topic, I can't wait for the sign up page, nor can I wait for Saturday.
Dewitt, I appreciate all that you and the other instructors are doing to make this event possible.
Brian

NRA RSO
sypher
Marksman
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu 01 Mar 2012 7:11 pm
Location: Grand Forks County

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby Jpeterson66 » Mon 01 Oct 2012 5:17 pm

My wife and 2 of her brothers would love to join this event! I'll be watching for the sign up page!
2 S&W M&P9's, M&P Shield 9mm
Jpeterson66
Novice
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri 29 Oct 2010 9:17 am
Location: Orem

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Mon 01 Oct 2012 8:49 pm

Jpeterson66 wrote:My wife and 2 of her brothers would love to join this event! I'll be watching for the sign up page!

Korben88 has volunteered to create the sign-up form and the draft looks great! I've asked him to make a couple of minor changes so that the pre-printing of the forms will be easier. We hope to post the sign-up page in the next day or two.
:thumbup:
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

Re: 1st Annual UCC Free CFP Class 03 Nov 2012

Postby dewittdj » Tue 02 Oct 2012 6:51 pm

Locked on Lee Kay Hunter Safety Range Classroom A for 0900-1500, 03 November 2012. :dancing:

Student Registration: https://secure.jotform.us/form/22722246111138

We will have access to the Police Range (far east portion of the Hunter Education range) following the classroom instruction.

Each student will have to pay a $5.50 range fee (required by the Lee Kay).

Requirements:

Must pay a $5.50 range fee.
Must be able to possess a firearm (meeting Federal and State regulations).
Must be willing to stay for the entire duration of the class and range.
Must bring a handgun and 50 rounds of ammunition for the live fire range exercise. Note: Do not bring your handgun or ammo into the classroom. Leave it secured in your vehicle until the live fire exercise commences (1400 or 2:00 p.m., whichever comes first).
No drugs, alcohol, or contraband allowed.
Last edited by dewittdj on Thu 11 Oct 2012 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
dewittdj
Top Shot
 
Posts: 5258
Joined: Sat 07 Aug 2010 10:36 pm
Location: Northern Utah

PreviousNext

Return to Training Center

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests