Personal regimen

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Personal regimen

Postby metalgimp » Fri 24 Jan 2014 7:41 am

I seek comments & advice.

I go to a range and execute a series of training "reps." Has anyone done this, and how can I improve it?

With dry fire and with live fire.
  • Draw (no fire). Slow at first and then speed up slowly. If I don't line up the front sight, I slow it down and try again. (drawing)
  • Draw with double pop on third draw. Again slow at first, speed up, and slow down on error. (muscle memory & drawing)
  • Line up (no draw/fire). Start at "ready position," lift pistol, and line up front sight on target. (muscle memory)
  • Line up/double pop. (Sight line up & muscle memory)
  • Straight pop. Practice three "ready positions"; standard target practice. (Accuracy)
I do about 1-3 minutes with each, switching randomly and where needed.

When I do this at the range, naturally I feel self-conscious, but I ignore the looks. Last time I went, I noticed others in the range began doing some of the same. I just wish I had a partner to do the reps with, because obviously, I'll miss some critical, bad habit.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby quychang » Fri 24 Jan 2014 7:58 am

While your regimen sounds like a good idea, I suspect it will make you unpopular with RSO's. At least I've seen RSO's at Wahsatch tell people they can't draw and fire on the normal open to the public range.

I'm not an RSO, so I can't tell you this definitively, just what I've witnessed. Now, a private range, or a shooting spot out west of the lake would be another story of course.

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Re: Personal regimen

Postby D-FIN » Fri 24 Jan 2014 11:22 am

I was curious what range you are doing this at as well. PMAA?

If you make arrangements for one of the other bays if an RSO is available you might could do draws at Wahsatch but not likely on the public range.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby metalgimp » Fri 24 Jan 2014 5:51 pm

I've been going to "Get Some," and not only are they cool with it, they've given me some pointers. One the range managers encouraged me to get a monthly pass so that I could save money and get to know them better. I used it so often that for the first time, the pistol actually part of me. Later I practiced dry fire without any muscle jerking, nice and steady. For someone coming out of several nervous breakdowns, that's something!

More dumb questions: What are RSO and PMAA?
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby dewittdj » Fri 24 Jan 2014 6:32 pm

metalgimp wrote:I've been going to "Get Some," and not only are they cool with it, they've given me some pointers. One the range managers encouraged me to get a monthly pass so that I could save money and get to know them better. I used it so often that for the first time, the pistol actually part of me. Later I practiced dry fire without any muscle jerking, nice and steady. For someone coming out of several nervous breakdowns, that's something!

More dumb questions: What are RSO and PMAA?

RSO - [Range Safety Officer] sometimes used synonymously with RO [Range Officer], though technically they are not the same. The Range Safety Officer is someone who possess the knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to organizing, conducting, and supervising safe shooting activities and range operations. The RSO is concerned with the safe operation of the range whereas the Range Officer is usually only concerned with a particular match or event on a range, with a focus on ensuring the event rules and regulations are being followed for that particular match.

PMAA - Police Mutual Aid Association - owns a range in Parley's canyon: http://www.saltlakecitygunrange.com/
Save $10-1yr: new or renewal:
3yr-$70, 5yr-$100, Life-$750
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp?campaignid=XI028543
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Re: Personal regimen (safety vs. no safety)

Postby metalgimp » Sat 25 Jan 2014 7:32 am

Further "personal regimen" notes:

I didn't like carrying my firearm without the safety engaged, because I was worried that it fire by accident. (I have a Tanfoglio Witness 9mm. I really like it.) One of the men at "Get Some" asserted that he never carries with the safety on, because it takes that much longer to respond in an event.

I tried my regimen with and without the safety and concluded that the man was right. Not only that, but I also found that the safety's mechanism was hard to switch and was tearing up my thumb. Now I carry without safety, and the pistol in a hammer-dropped state.

Comments?
Last edited by metalgimp on Sun 09 Feb 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby Volsung » Sat 25 Jan 2014 10:12 pm

A safety is designed to be used. If your firearm has an external safety, it should be engaged while the firearm is holstered. The safety should be disengaged during the draw; in one fluid motion. Disengaging the safety does not add any time to your presentation. If you carry a firearm with an internal safety (trigger safety), the safety is disengaged when you begin to depress the trigger. You should train the same way every time you draw.

Be cautious when someone suggests you do something unsafe. Don't give yourself any training scars. An instructor should never teach anyone anything that could get them killed. It would be well worth it to take a shooting class for guidance.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby gskip33 » Sat 25 Jan 2014 11:42 pm

Bad safeties make your draw slower (see beretta 92). Good safeties keep the gun "safer" and do not effect the draw (see 1911).

Whenever a firearm I have has a safety I make sure to use it. If it has a safety I don't like, I get rid of it. I owned a Smith and Wesson 3913 for a while (kinda like the Holy Grail of CCW weapons for some) and while it really was a phenomenal gun, I couldn't get used to that slide mounted safety so I sold it. The only safety that I like and feels natural while not slowing down my draw is a 1911.

If it has a safety and it is not in a 1911 style I don't buy the gun.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby jfwright1955 » Sun 26 Jan 2014 8:36 am

Okay, so I share my story for what it's worth if for no other reason to emphasis the need and importance for training to understand your limits and boundaries when carrying. That said, moyler on this forum offers great local classes and training as many here can attest. Just look him up in the Training Center section.

Okay, so now for my experiences as something to think about.

Of all my M&P semi's only my Shield has a safety, the others don't (full size, pro L in both 9mm & .40 S&W). As a civilian I do my fair share of practicing and training (dry fire, SIRT pistol, live fire, etc...). For my non-safetied pistols I used to carry without one in the chamber (often referred to as the "Israeli" style) during which you only rack a round into the chamber during presentation. I'd done this literally thousands of times so I was confident the process was burned into my muscle memory and I could repeat it without thinking about it under pressure in an event.

Likewise for the Shield; I typically carry it as a BUG (back up gun) during training OWB'ed at the 5 o'clock position always with the safety engaged. Again, I'd practiced presentation hundreds of times and felt confident that without even thinking about it I'd disengage the safety during presentation when needed.

I started off by eluding to the importance of training. Why?...

The intent of certainly advanced training classes (and to some extend basic) is to push you to the point of failure so you understand your boundaries as to your capabilities and skill level. You come away from that training knowing what you do well and, more importantly, what you need to work on to improve your skills.

A few of the exercises are designed around real world scenarios to increase your adrenaline levels while causing you to think and respond rapidly as an event unfolds. In some classes with multiple students, each of you knows your role and what you are supposed to do but you do not know what the others have been told and so it's a total surprise when the exercise begins, which simulates a real event (by the way, it's true what we hear about many up close encounters lasting only 5-10 seconds). It's only then do you find out if our bodies and brains will truly remember to rack the slide back to chamber a round or flip the safety off during presentation.

So, how did this change my regimen?...

Regarding chambering a round during presentation, there were one or two occasions that because of adrenaline and sensory deprivation I didn't get a round chambered while presenting the pistol. I wasted valuable time performing the "slap, rack, and roll" process to get a round into the chamber and engage the bad guy. In a real event that could have ended in a bad situation for me.

Regarding flipping the safety off during presentation of my BUG, again there were a couple of times my thumb slipped off the safety so it didn't disengage so I had to work the pistol to resolve the problem. Again, valuable milliseconds were wasted and in a real scenario it may not have been a good outcome for me.

Now, I don't say this to tell anyone to carry with one in the chamber or un-safetied (just read my signature) unless you're really comfortable with doing either of these. By taking advanced training you'll find out whether you personally will be able to rack a round or un-safety a pistol in those adrenaline-pumping moments leading up to an encounter. If you can, fantastic; you know with confidence it will reliably and repeatedly work for you. I've trained with folks who could and so it remains their personal carry strategy. I, however, could not.

So, the training for me highlighted my personal carry strategy, which is to carry with a round in the chamber and, if I'm carrying a pistol with a safety, that it's disengaged. This works for me and I train this way and I'm 100% confident in being able to do this in an adrenaline-pumping event. But, again, because it works for me I'm not implying it's right for everyone.

Be aware, however; if you do choose to carry this way it's even more important to consciously and purposefully handle your pistol safely at all times.
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Re: Personal regimen (safety vs. no safety)

Postby metalgimp » Sun 26 Jan 2014 8:54 pm

What do I say to all these comments? They are all founded in good, solid practice and experience. (No, it is not my nature to say: "you're wrong.")

Vulsong-
Yes, by the rules, one should and ought to use as many safety devices as been put in the device, be it a vehicle or a pistol. But, I'm not going to drive in a self-defensive way. IOW, if I had someone *intentionally* hit me (which happened a few months ago, and the cop gave me a "disorderly conduct" citation, arrested me, and cuffed me), I don't hit them first. I depend on the safety mechanisms in my Ford Taurus. Still, I did have the presence of mind to avoid hitting a pedestrian, even though I was being shoved towards her. I still have 3' of the woman's tire running down the side of my car.

However, that was a situation in which I've had more than enough experience and so my mind was able to work things out logically, resulting a conclusion where no one was hurt. (The fact that the cop arrested me and not her was enough to send my mind in a tailspin: my "fairness algorithm" could not deal with it. I've been recovering ever since.)

The pistol is different. I've never faced (actually I have) a down-the-barrel life-threatening event. Those tire treads aren't scratched in my muscle memory. Anything that goes in my way, including safety measures [I just had a "I can't believe I'm actually saying this!!!" moment], _will_ _be_ _bad_. Where does that leave me? It forces me to keep my mind together. It has. Immeasurably.

Yes, for those who're reading this, I know that carrying is NOT good therapy and should never be a motive to do so. I realize that my avoidance of pistol safeties places me in the freak show zone.

GSkip33-
Firearm selection and preference not really something I can afford, so I work with what I have. I did do research in function and fit; that's all I could afford.

JFWright1955-
When I tried to take the safety off as part of the motion from holster to presentation, my thumb kept slipping and then torn up by the scoring on the top of the metal. I fully expect that in a situation it WILL be a hindrance. A hiccup in performance will inevitably take me off target, shifting my tunnel vision from one problem to another, lose valuable time, place myself and those I had sworn to protect in danger, etc., etc.

I'm lined up to go to Front Sight in Nevada this year for training. I sure hope what you say about pushing yourself to the point of failure will be a long rollercoaster and not a tailspin.
Last edited by metalgimp on Sun 09 Feb 2014 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby D-FIN » Mon 27 Jan 2014 1:19 am

I am not at all familiar with your model of gun but if it only has one manual safety then it is meant to used and you should use it. Especially if your trigger is not a long pull. If is is double action only or double/single with a long heavy pull then you might be fine sans safety or if you have other built in safeties. The reality is even if you don't use it, it could mistakenly get put on and if you don't train to take it off when you draw then it will be too late and you with no boom when you need one.
You can't win the sheep over to your side if your always showing them your fangs.

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Re: Personal regimen

Postby Durdenz » Mon 27 Jan 2014 2:00 am

I never carry with the safety on unless it's a single action 1911. Then it's cocked and locked. The safety for me is that my holster covers the trigger. A pistol is a machine. It's not going to just go off by itself. There must be a mechanical action performed, trigger being pulled, before it can fire. If the trigger is covered it's not going to go off.

I know the gun you carry. It's a CZ clone. I've got a witness in .45 It has a long heavy double action pull. With it in a holster there's no way the trigger can be pulled that far or that hard. I'd never carry it with the safety on. It's not built to be switched on and off easily like a 1911. It's high on the frame, stiff and awkward.

Maybe im the only one who carries and trains without a safety on.
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Re: Personal regimen (Tanfoglio Witness P-S)

Postby metalgimp » Tue 28 Jan 2014 12:44 pm

No, you're not the only one, but counting me might not be as influential.

Yes, my pistol is a CZ knockoff and is my second favorite. My first is an old, used Argentine 45ACP. So very smooth! The Tanfoglio Witness is becoming just as smooth while I pump through 2-3 boxes of rounds per week. Yes, it's expensive. I can't really count how many rounds I've put through the thing, but it's getting smoother. The [whatever the action's called--you pull back on the slide to chamber a round] is still stiff, and the trigger is really rough on my finger. By the time I'm through with a session, I have a blister. No worries, it heals up very quickly.

The biggest issue is as you said, the placement and style of safety. I really wish it were lower and a little forward. As it stands, it's smooth up to the crest where it is hash cut. Countless times I tried to take off the safety quickly only to have my thumb slide off.

It is a double/single action with a >8 lb pull on the double action; the single action feels about 3 lb. The real hassle is dropping the hammer without firing and without bruising your thumb. I'm embarrassed to admit that I _did_ have a misfire at the range when I was getting ready to go and was trying to put the pistol in double action. That was a... wake up call. I've got to be 100% in control of the thing (for obvious reasons), but if I make one mistake, my wife will *rightfully* put her foot down.
Last edited by metalgimp on Sun 09 Feb 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal regimen

Postby D-FIN » Tue 28 Jan 2014 12:50 pm

Safety is not a de-coker then?
You can't win the sheep over to your side if your always showing them your fangs.

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Re: Personal regimen (stance)

Postby metalgimp » Tue 28 Jan 2014 1:00 pm

Getting back on topic of Person Regimen:

The three standard positions I use are [someone help me with the terminology]: standing square and squatting slightly with my right foot forward, complete profile with arm extended, and my right arm straight and pulled to the left like a rifle stock.

I practice each with to get a proper grouping at 5/7/10 yards. I consider a good grouping 7" diameter at 10 yards. I do try periodically to go further, but that's not my target zone; I've been told that 10 yards is outside that zone. Interestingly, I find that my left hand is more accurate than my right. After that I do draw practicing.

One thing I notice is that drawing and straight shooting yield vastly different groupings. I'm encouraged when I hit the general region of the silhouette at 10 yards. Trying to tighten the groups, I slow way down and focus how I pull, where I put my foot, where/when I put my left hand to steady my right, and easing the trigger. Believe me, I get looks from other shooters.

Any recommendations?
Last edited by metalgimp on Sun 09 Feb 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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