Carry with one in the chamber?...

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Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby moyler » Tue 10 May 2016 4:06 pm

Interesting article on the subject of carrying a round in the chamber, or rather, not carrying a round in the chamber. I have my opinion, and I have talked to several friends and students on the subject, and while I fall on the 'round in the chamber' side of the fence, I support the mental process that goes into being completely comfortable with it.

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/experts ... z48DgOnagN
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby moyler » Tue 10 May 2016 4:10 pm

The article is biased, but it raised some good points, particularly the issue of the need to administratively load or unload the pistol to meet the requirements of your environment. It is also brought up that a person who will not carry with one in the pipe should just not bother carrying, as they likely will do nothing when faced with a deadly threat, or they could create a liability. While this train of thought has some validity, I think for some people there is a difference between not yet being comfortable with, and understand the safety levels of a good mind, holster, and training, and not being able or willing to meet force with force if needed.

In our classes we have discussed some ways to mitigate the time needed to load a round during a potentially deadly threat; and my experience it is usually training that closes the mental and physical gap to carrying with a round in the chamber.
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby Cinhil » Wed 11 May 2016 1:31 am

For some it is imperative that they carry with one in the chamber due to job or other situations which would make it necessary to do so, for the rest I believe it is an individual choice. A choice which may just fall under the comfortable range for the carrier. Having been previously assaulted I know how close twenty one feet is and the reaction time is critical when at said range, which could be the difference between life and death. Having that round in the tube could make all the difference in the world on one's survival. When I carry I carry prepared regardless of where I am going it could mean the difference in my survival or that of my family or others, I do however, support those who have not gotten to a level in there psyche where they feel comfortable in doing so. Just my two cents worth.
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby D-FIN » Wed 11 May 2016 1:13 pm

Without getting into the whole chambered vs not chambered debate I find the school's rules to be ridiculous in that they are far more likely to cause an ND related incident that stop one. Also how are they going to police such a thing. Are they going to stop every person carrying and do a chamber check? I know the article paralleled my thoughts on this is detail but I could not help but agree fully that they are creating more danger than they are supposedly stopping.
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby JoeSparky » Wed 11 May 2016 4:35 pm

To follow on what was just said--- are they going to provide some sort of indicator so that they know one has been checked and found to be "chamber empty" or is one to demonstrate this condition on entrance to every classroom on arrival. Who on campus will be authorized to make these checks?
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby dewittdj » Wed 11 May 2016 7:34 pm

Firearms don't discharge by themselves.

Handling (whether holstering or unholstering, loading or unloading, putting in concealment or removing from concealment) by anyone not fully engaged, aware, and well versed/properly trained introduces a greater likelihood of a mishap than simply leaving the firearm alone. This has been proven over and over again to the point of ad nauseam.

A firearm with one in the chamber is no more safe or dangerous than one without one in the chamber. The element of danger involves the environment, circumstances, and individuals.

For the "4 Rule" folks: rule #1: Treat every firearm as if it is loaded.
For the "3 Rule" folks: rule #1: Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

For both, keep the finger off of the trigger until ready to shoot.

Following these rules, there should never be an ND.

Unfortunately, for many who carry, they have trouble following these rules all the time and every time they handle their firearms, so they "feel" safer not having one in the chamber when carrying.
As long as they are not going to exercise the due diligence to follow the primary safety rules ALL the time, I encourage them to continue to carry without one in the chamber.

Every gun I handle is treated as loaded until I prove otherwise to myself and even after that, I still continue to follow the 3 safety rules.

All of my guns are always loaded, ready for action. Before holstering, I verify that fact. Just as I verify that my seatbelt is secure after I hear the click.

57 years and no ND's to my credit. Something must be working. :wink:
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby bagpiper » Fri 13 May 2016 11:42 am

As D-Fin pointed out, the rule requiring guns to be carried with empty chambers on campus is likely to increase the risks of an ND (and thus increase the risks of personal or property damage) rather than reduce it.

With that, I'm going to express a few personal thoughts. dewittdj's post is as good a springboard as any, though I don't direct my comments to him in particular.

dewittdj wrote:Firearms don't discharge by themselves.

Handling (whether holstering or unholstering, loading or unloading, putting in concealment or removing from concealment) by anyone not fully engaged, aware, and well versed/properly trained introduces a greater likelihood of a mishap than simply leaving the firearm alone. This has been proven over and over again to the point of ad nauseam.


FIFY.

I contend that ANY handling increases the odds of a mishap. A gun lying undisturbed has about a zero risk of an ND occurring anytime before the gun rusts into a pile of worthless metal-oxide.

Any handling, by anyone, is going to increase that risk by some amount, however small.

By being fully engaged, aware, well versed & properly trained, a person can keep that increase small enough that he will probably go a lifetime never having an ND.

But if a gun has to be handled often enough, then even a very small increase in per-incident risk, might eventually lead to the odds catching up to someone.

So for me personally, the calculation involves more than my own training levels or comfort with the gun, and being fully engaged. I also take into account how often I'm going to have to handle a firearm as well as which firearm I'm carrying and how it is carried. On one end of the spectrum is my 1911 with its external safety, carried in a retention holster, and with no expectation that I'm going to have to handle that firearm during the day is going to be carried cocked and locked ready to go. On the other end of the spectrum, is when I'm carrying a gun without an external safety, in a non-retention pocket holster knowing that I'm going to have to move that gun between my pocket and the car safe several times during the day, because of where I'm going. In this latter case, I'm likely to carry with the pipe empty. Despite my best efforts, the odds of the trigger being exposed are simply higher in this latter case. And that means the odds of something--my finger, a foreign object, who knows what--depressing that trigger are higher. How much higher? I don't know.

I can't prove the risk of an ND carrying in the pipe in this case is higher than the risk of needing to have had one in the chamber to save my life. I doubt anyone can prove the opposite. So like much in life, I believe this is and must remain a personal choice and should be unfettered by rules or laws made by those who probably can't even begin to admit they are not able to do the calculation any better than I can.


dewittdj wrote:A firearm with one in the chamber is no more safe or dangerous than one without one in the chamber. The element of danger involves the environment, circumstances, and individuals.


"Danger" is determined by the circumstances. For someone who really needs to use his gun while his off hand is otherwise engaged, an empty chamber makes the gun far less usable and the circumstances far more dangerous. For someone who doesn't need to do that, but gets his finger in the trigger guard when it shouldn't be there, having a round in the chamber makes the situation far more dangerous.

A round in the chamber makes it easier and faster to discharge that round. This is the very reason we demand the right to carry fully loaded. It is the very reason some folks, under some circumstances, choose not to carry one in the pipe.

It is kind of a shame that in attacking the unnecessary and dangerous rule, the experts had to go so far as to attack personal choice as well.

The fact is, in many cases, one does get some advance warning of when a gun may be needed. There is a higher risk of attack while walking alone through a dark parking garage than while in the office or classroom with a dozen associates. The odds of needing the gun go up after one blows a tire on a deserted road in the middle of the night, compared to before the flat when one was tooling down the road at 70 mph. The barking dog or alarm system blaring might well indicate a higher level of risk than was present a few minutes earlier.

Just as one should be careful enough to avoid an ND when carrying a fully loaded firearm, one should also have sufficient SA to avoid being caught completely off guard by a bad guy. After all, what is the difference in time between being able to chamber a round and not being able to retrieve the gun at all because you've been completely disabled by the proverbial baseball bat to the back of the head?

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby quychang » Wed 18 May 2016 7:19 am

I have a friend who shall remain nameless, other than I'll tell you she's in her 40's, owns a .380 as well as a .22 rifle. Her father and I occasionally go shooting with her. And he and I nag her constantly about getting her finger out of the trigger guard. We work with her to show her proper finger position, feel like we're making some headway, and 20 minutes later one of us will notice and correct her again. Now, this is usually in the west desert, with no one but the three of us around, and at least so far it's mostly been the .22 rifle with the barrel pointed at the sky. Admittedly, not that dangerous in that situation, but a very dangerous habit to have, and apparently not be able to break.

My point is, she should probably NEVER carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I'm not sure she should be carrying a gun at all, and to be fair, she hasn't gotten her permit and does not at this point carry.

I'm like DJ, in that I treat every gun as if it's ready to fire, until I have physically verified for myself that it's unloaded. And then I still keep my fingers off the trigger, try my best to never point it at someone, even accidentally sweeping them bothers me. I admit, even with my 1911's I usually carry or transport them without one in the cylinder. I'm more comfortable with that even though I know my safety practices are as flawless as I can make them. Charles is right, there are possible scenarios where a trigger could be inadvertently pulled.

Anecdotally and only tangential to to the subject. A news show I watch has a tiled background with very definite intersecting lines. Some camera angles put the hosts clearly in the center of those intersecting lines. Rather like having a person right dead center in the cross hairs of a scope. It's cringe worthy to me. Even if I had dropped the bolt out of a bolt action rifle, so I new there was no possible way it could discharge, I still wouldn't use the scope to look at people. I know it's stupid, but I find it highly distracting.

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby bagpiper » Thu 19 May 2016 4:52 pm

quychang wrote:...And he and I nag her constantly about getting her finger out of the trigger guard. We work with her to show her proper finger position, feel like we're making some headway, and 20 minutes later one of us will notice and correct her again.


I was raised to "keep my finger off the trigger until ready to fire." And it worked fine for me.

But, it was interesting to me over the last couple of decades to attend classes where the students are instead taught to, "Index your trigger finger along the side of the firearm," or something similar.

In other words, rather than telling students not to do something, they are instead taught to actively do something that simply prevents them from doing the thing they are not supposed to do. It can be a subtle, but powerful difference for many people.

I know that in raising my children, I tend to get better results telling them to "clean your room, then read your book, then go play in the back yard" than to simply say, "and stay out of trouble."

If you haven't already, you might try the "indexing your trigger finger" routine rather than "keep your finger off the trigger" mantra with your friend. It will still take repetition. But it is a positive habit that can be built such that holding a gun with your finger anywhere but "indexed" feels a little wrong except for at the moment you intend to fire.

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby quychang » Fri 20 May 2016 3:24 pm

bagpiper wrote:If you haven't already, you might try the "indexing your trigger finger" routine rather than "keep your finger off the trigger" mantra with your friend. It will still take repetition. But it is a positive habit that can be built such that holding a gun with your finger anywhere but "indexed" feels a little wrong except for at the moment you intend to fire.

Charles


Actually, that's exactly what we do, to make a long story short, I said nagging. Which is what if feels like we are doing. Constantly reminding a grown, intelligent adult how best to approach the situation. Oh, I won't say we've never said, "Get your finger out of the trigger guard, or get your finger off the trigger". But honestly, we always follow up with showing her the correct position for her finger. I think we need a training gun with no hole in the trigger guard so that she has no choice but to hold it the way we're showing her.

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby UtahCFP » Fri 20 May 2016 7:22 pm

Hehe... I had gotten in the habit on finding the slide release bump on GLOCKs with my trigger finger on frame. So the first time I brought an AR up to target, I dropped the magazine out of the rifle 'cause that's where my trigger finger went to index. Oops.
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby bagpiper » Fri 20 May 2016 9:43 pm

quychang wrote: I think we need a training gun with no hole in the trigger guard so that she has no choice but to hold it the way we're showing her.


That is actually a really good idea. I wonder if it might not be a good idea for teaching proper grip to new students before they ever get to hold the real gun. Maybe a way to enforce learning some proper muscle memory.

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby quychang » Sat 21 May 2016 12:55 am

bagpiper wrote:
quychang wrote: I think we need a training gun with no hole in the trigger guard so that she has no choice but to hold it the way we're showing her.


That is actually a really good idea. I wonder if it might not be a good idea for teaching proper grip to new students before they ever get to hold the real gun. Maybe a way to enforce learning some proper muscle memory.

Charles


It might even be possible to make something that fits existing guns, that has the same effect. Fills the hole, and shields the trigger from being pulled. Hmmm... there's probably something like that already though. When I have an idea, I usually find out it's been done, or is in the works.

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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby jfwright1955 » Wed 25 May 2016 11:03 am

An option might be to use a Raven Concealment Vanguard holster. It's a minimalistic trigger holster/guard design could also serve in preventing someone's trigger finger from unintentionally working it's way into the trigger guard as part of training. Once the instructor is satisfied the student has grasped the concept, just pull it off any away you go. Just a thought.

EDIT: After giving it some thought once I'd pressed the "enter" key, I'm not sure if that'll work as it would interfere with the two-handed grip. Something like it that conformed to the exact shape of the trigger guard (triggerdom) might work though.

Raven Vanguard Trigger Guard.jpg
Raven Concealment VanGuard Holster (Trigger Guard)
Raven Vanguard Trigger Guard.jpg (26.92 KiB) Viewed 7378 times
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Re: Carry with one in the chamber?...

Postby quychang » Wed 25 May 2016 11:53 am

I was thinking perhaps a clam shell type gadget that fit inside the trigger guard, and maybe had one allen head screw holding it together. While that design if all hard plastic would be model specific, if you had each piece surrounded by rubber or soft plastic, and the had plastic part with the screw was mostly designed to enclose the trigger, you might be able to accommodate multiple models of guns. Just brainstorming, but if someone had access to a 3d printer and maybe some silicon I think it would be pretty easy to make a prototype.

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