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Online Training -- Is It Legal???

9K views 20 replies 9 participants last post by  Korben88 
#1 ·
I was doing some research online while revising my Utah Concealed Carry Course and came across a company that is advertising Utah Concealed Carry Online Courses. I didn't think this was legal, but thought I'd ask here before going further with this matter. I'm providing a link so everybody can see what I'm talking about.

http://www.onlinecarrytraining.com/utah ... -carry-law
 
#2 ·
I'm not a CFP instructor, and I haven't checked in your question, but I did notice a nice error that he has. He says that the resident Utah permit requires a range session. That's not true. Some instructors require it, but it's not required by the state.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#3 ·
Training must be done IN PERSON. Online training is a violation of BCI policy and will result in adverse action to the instructor.

Live fire is NOT required by BCI, but MAY be imposed by BCI Certified instructors at their discretion.
 
#5 ·
Just out of a sense of perversity, I read a few of their FAQ's. Besides being poorly written with glaring proof reading errors, they require that after you watch their video you take a test and pass with 70% or higher. Another error. In fact, I won't enumerate them here, but I noticed a number of errors, and I didn't look all that closely. Yes, I think an email bringing them to the BCI's attention would definitely be in order.

Mel
 
#7 ·
They are playing a Jedi mind trick on people. This is for the Virginia non-resident permit that had reciprocity with Utah. They do not get an actual Utah permit. Several of my students found that out the hard way. This same company has also or still does this using the Arizona permit. Peeps just don't read the fine print and think they are getting a Utah permit. False advertising in my opinion.

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#9 ·
This website is misleading in the extreme. It clearly claims (falsely) that its online course is acceptable training when applying for a Utah CFP. They go on and on about how you will be able to carry in Utah, and apply for a Utah CFP, then slip in that you are actually getting a Virginia non resident permit, but you will be able to carry in Utah through the use of an AZ permit (wait a minute.. I thought I was getting a Utah errr... Virginia non resident permit???).

Bottom line, after just a few minutes looking at their website I say they aren't misleading people, they're just plain lying.
 
#10 ·
Virginia does not require an "in person" course. The on line courses are perfectly legal for getting either a non-resident VA CHP or a resident one. (different issuing agencies)
 
#12 ·
AlanM said:
Virginia does not require an "in person" course. The on line courses are perfectly legal for getting either a non-resident VA CHP or a resident one. (different issuing agencies)
Virginia was my first ccw and I had just purchased my first firearm, so I was a n00b when I went through the Virginia process. I do recall my course was in person and included a shooting session. The course fee was $40. I'm familiar with the difference between the issuing agencies. Residents get their permits through the city whereas nonresidents go through the state police. I had to run through those circles because VSP initially wouldn't send me the packet because I had a Virginia mailing address. The City of Chesapeake wouldn't accept my packet because I maintained my Utah residency.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm on pretty good terms with the BCI staff. I'll send them an email and the link.

Email sent.

If they providing Utah CFP instructor certification stamps for their online course then they are in violation of BCI's training requirements:

Concealed firearm instructors must make certain that all applicants who attend their courses receive proper in-person training within the guidelines prescribed by law. The Bureau has collected the following information to assist instructors in preparing or adding to their course outlines. This curriculum is the minimum training required by the Bureau and must be provided to all applicants who desire to obtain a Utah concealed firearm permit as required by state statute, U.C.A. § 53-5-704(10). The Bureau supports instructors adding any additional firearms training and or material, including a live fire exercise. If there are any questions, do not hesitate to contact the Bureau of Criminal Identification at 801-965-4445.

THE GOAL IS TO ELIMINATE INCIDENTS BY PROVIDING EXCELLENT TRAINING!

To properly teach the Utah concealed firearm permit course, in person instruction consisting of a minimum of 4 hours is recommended. This time frame should consist of course related material not to include extra services such as fingerprinting, photos, etc. If a certified instructor chooses to teach multi state permits, the Utah permit should be completed separately. This policy ensures the Utah concealed firearm permit course is taught in its entirety without intermixing different states interpretations of the laws and rules governed within. Please follow these statutory guidelines as you instruct!
From their application page:

Application.jpg


It would appear to be dishonesty in their advertising.
 

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#14 ·
It would almost be worth the $70.00 to sign up, take the course with a [Utah] application submitted and see if they send a Utah Instructor CFP certification stamp.

If they don't send a Utah certification stamp, then stop payment on the VISA and report fraud to the card agency, citing that one did not receive what was advertised.

If they do send a Utah certification stamp, then forward the instructor info to BCI and have the permits issued under that stamp revoked and pull that instructor(s)'s license and permit.
 
#15 ·
Got a reply from BCI. they've been checking these people out for a while. Nobody at that "company" is a BCI Certified Instructor. BCI Agent said they are offering a Virginia non - resident permit that would be recognized by Utah.

Next step is to see if Virginia allows online classes.
 
#16 ·
Got a reply straight from the "horse's mouth": (a.k.a "Paul" at OnlineCarryTraining.com):

Bottom line, all they are offering is a Virginia Non-resident permit.

Hi David,

Thank you for showing interest in our online course. Let me inform you that our online course only allows you to obtain Virginia Non resident permit. You may not be able to get Utah permit since every local sheriff department has its own discretion. However, you can Obtain an Virginia non-resident Permit to Carry Permit to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Utah. You can carry a concealed weapon with the Virginia non-resident Permit to Carry Permit, because Utah honors it as a legal permit. The Virginia Non-resident Permit is honored in 30 states. You may get the detailed list at http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

Below are the step-by-step instructions on how to apply for their Virginia Permit.

To apply for your VA non-resident Permit visit:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Non ... ealed.shtm

You can also go to www.vsp.state.va.us/ and on the left side of the page click the link for "firearms/concealed handguns" and then click on "Nonresident Concealed Handgun Permits" link.

This will bring you to a page that details the application process. You can begin the application process immediately by downloading their checklist of all the documents that need to be prepared to make your application.

This webpage will give you everything you need to apply. Here is a breakdown of the process:
-Download and fill out the Nonresident Concealed Handgun Permit Application and have it notarized
-Get a money order or cashier's check for $100 made payable to the Virginia State Police
-Have 2 photographs of yourself meeting the requirements spelled out on the Virginia State Police Nonresident Concealed Handgun permits webpage
-Complete finger print cards as dictated in the application checklist
-Have a photocopy of government issued ID
-Have your certificate of completion from Online Carry Training

Send all these documents to:
Firearms Transaction Center
Nonresident Concealed Handgun Permits
Criminal Justice Information Services Division
Department of State Police
P.O. Box 85141
Richmond, VA 23285-5141

This entire process is detailed on the Virginia State Police website and on the CHECKLIST on the Nonresident Concealed Handgun Permits page of the Virginia State Police Website.

If you seek further assistance, feel free to contact us.

Regards,
Paul
 
#17 ·
dewittdj said:
Got a reply straight from the "horse's mouth": (a.k.a "Paul" at OnlineCarryTraining.com):

Bottom line, all they are offering is a Virginia Non-resident permit.

Hi David,

Thank you for showing interest in our online course. Let me inform you that our online course only allows you to obtain Virginia Non resident permit. You may not be able to get Utah permit since every local sheriff department has its own discretion.
An inaccurate answer at that, it sounds like he's got us confused with Oregon. Since when did every local Sheriff in UT have their own discretion?

Mel
 
#18 ·
Virginia nonresident is actually only recognized in 28 states.



Florida, South Carolina, and Pennsylvania are the only red states that go green with a resident permit.

Another thought I had is, why would anybody get a Virginia nonresident permit when they can very easily get a Utah permit from a local instructor? There are so many other options too. Iirc, many sporting goods stores will hold free hunter safety classes. That's good enough for Florida (and 4 hours credit for Illinois).
 
#19 ·
Also received a response from Scott, one of the Agent Investigators at BCI.
Hello David

Thank you for the information on this web site. Unfortunately this company chooses to be deceptive in there advertising of the class they offer. The class is for a Virginia non-resident permit that is recognized by the state of Utah. No one in this company is a Certified Utah Concealed Firearms Instructor. I have tried on several occasions to contact Online Carry Training Company but they will not return my calls or e- mails. If you have any more questions please call anytime.
I also sent him a copy of the message that I received from ConcealedCarryTraining.com.

Buyer beware! Like Unita said, why go through the time, hassle and aggravation of a VA Non-resident permit when you can get yours for less cost and faster locally?
 
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