Get a COM safe and put it under your seat. Cabela's has them to. Chances of your car being broken into are slim and the chances of them getting the COM safe out of the car are even slimmer. Least ways if you are that worried about not having a weapon on you the days you work you will have to take some risk. As for it being loaded or unloaded that's your choice. What town is your job in, what is the neighborhood like, what are the chances your car will be broken into, do you have an alarm on your car?

 

I have a Federal job now. As we all know, we cannot carry in a Federal building. I was told that we had to park on the street if we were going to leave our firearms in the car.

The parking lot law may be your friend here. I'd read it carefully to see whether or not your employer falls into one of the categories that can be exempt, and if not, I'd contact either your employer's legal staff (if you know who they are and have access to them) or the Attorney General's office about it.

State law does supersede the federal law that probably bans carry in federal facilities, but federal agencies can't make policies that contravene state law.

 

It really sucks that the law abiding are the ones who are screwed. Do I have any grounds to refuse a search request of my car by my employer if they threaten it against termination of my position?

 

It really sucks that the law abiding are the ones who are screwed. Do I have any grounds to refuse a search request of my car by my employer if they threaten it against termination of my positiong?

Sadly most companies have a policy of "If you're car is on our grounds (including parking lots) then you allow your car to be searched whenever we deem fit."

 

Do I have any grounds to refuse a search request of my car by my employer if they threaten it against termination of my positiong?

Such policies are less common at federal agencies. The feds tend to be a bit more strategic in the rights they infringe and I'd think a policy about being able to search employees cars at will would come under quite a bit of scrutiny, unless there is truly a security issue at hand. With that said, you probably have very little grounds to stand on - you can be fired if you refuse the search IF this is documented as a terminable offence in the agency's employment policy.

 

After reading through the law, I am even more confused I have bolded the sections on exemptions from the law.
I read it as:
Every business has to comply with the law unless, they provide an alternate parking lot, a secure and monitored area to store you gun, (both must be reasonably proximate to the property) or Government entities, including a local authority or state entity, are subject to the requirements of Title 53, Chapter 5a, Firearm Laws.

But then Sub section 5 of 34-45-107 states that A company subject to federal law that specifically forbids the presence of a firearm from property designated for motor vehicle parking, is exempt from Section 34-45-103 if providing alternative parking or a storage location under Subsection 34-45-103 (2)(a) would pose an undue burden on the person; and the person files a statement with the attorney general citing the federal law that forbids the presence of a firearm and detailing the reasons why providing alternative parking or a storage location poses an undue burden.

So I say with reading that they do have to provide another location to park, or a place to store your firearm. Therefore you have the street which is where they told you to park if you have your firearm.

79 34-45-103. Protection of certain activities -- Firearms -- Free exercise of religion.
80 (1) Except as provided in Subsection (2), a person may not establish, maintain, or
81 enforce any policy or rule that has the effect of:
82 (a) prohibiting any individual from transporting or storing a firearm in a motor vehicle
83 on any property designated for motor vehicle parking, if:
84 (i) the individual is legally permitted to transport, possess, purchase, receive, transfer,
85 or store the firearm;
86 (ii) the firearm is locked securely in the motor vehicle or in a locked container

87 attached to the motor vehicle while the motor vehicle is not occupied; and
88 (iii) the firearm is not in plain view from the outside of the motor vehicle; or
89 (b) prohibiting any individual from possessing any item in or on a motor vehicle on
90 any property designated for motor vehicle parking, if the effect of the policy or rule constitutes
91 a substantial burden on that individual's free exercise of religion.
92 (2) A person may establish, maintain, or enforce a policy or rule that has the effect of
93 placing limitations on or prohibiting an individual from transporting or storing a firearm in a
94 motor vehicle on property the person has designated for motor vehicle parking if:
95 (a) the person provides, or there is otherwise available, one of the following, in a
96 location reasonably proximate to the property the person has designated for motor vehicle
97 parking:
98 (i) alternative parking for individuals who desire to transport, possess, receive,
99 transfer, or store a firearm in the individual's motor vehicle at no additional cost to the
100 individual; or
101 (ii) a secured and monitored storage location where the individual may securely store a
102 firearm before proceeding with the vehicle into the secured parking area; or
103 (b) the person complies with Subsection 34-45-107 (5).
....
139 34-45-107. Exemptions -- Limitations on chapter -- School premises --
140 Government entities -- Religious organizations -- Single family detached residential
141 units.
142 (1) (a) School premises, as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2 (1), are exempt from the

143 provisions of this chapter.
144 (b) Possession of a firearm on or about school premises is subject to the provisions of
145 Section 76-10-505.5 .
146 (2) Government entities, including a local authority or state entity, are subject to the
147 requirements of Title 53, Chapter 5a, Firearm Laws, but are otherwise exempt from the
148 provisions of this chapter.
149 (3) Religious organizations, including religious organizations acting as an employer,
150 are exempt from, and are not subject to the provisions of this chapter.
151 (4) Owner-occupied single family detached residential units and tenant-occupied
152 single family detached residential units are exempt from the provisions of this chapter.
153 (5) A person who is subject to federal law that specifically forbids the presence of a
154 firearm from property designated for motor vehicle parking, or a person who is subject to
155 Section 550 of the United States Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act of
156 2007, Pub. L. No. 109-295 or regulations enacted in accordance with that section, is exempt
157 from Section 34-45-103 if:
158 (a) providing alternative parking or a storage location under Subsection
159 34-45-103 (2)(a) would pose an undue burden on the person; and
160 (b) the person files a statement with the attorney general citing the federal law that
161 forbids the presence of a firearm and detailing the reasons why providing alternative parking
162 or a storage location poses an undue burden.
163 (6) A person who is subject to Section 550 of the United States Department of
164 Homeland Security Appropriations Act of 2007, Pub. L. No. 109-295 or regulations enacted in
165 accordance with that section is exempt from this chapter if:
166 (a) the person has attempted to provide alternative parking or a storage location in
167 accordance with Subsection 34-45-103 (2)(a);
168 (b) the secretary of the federal Department of Homeland Security notifies the person
169 that the provision of alternative parking or a storage location causes the person to be out of
170 compliance with Section 550 of the United States Department of Homeland Security

171 Appropriations Act of 2007, Pub. L. No. 109-295 or regulations enacted in accordance with
172 that section and the person may be subject to punitive measures; and
173 (c) the person files a detailed statement with the attorney general notifying the attorney
174 general of the facts under Subsections (6)(a) and (b).

 

There are many other defensive options at your disposal. My line of work requires my to put myself into hot situations quite often and the item I always grab first is my flashlight. Nothing stumbles a bad guy like spreading a little light on the situation.
What I am trying to get across is that no gun will ever replace your brain, though I have met a few that I believe it has.

 

hyrax, I would submit this thread for you to look at why we should always be armed:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6410

RugerShooter, Do you think it is fair for them to claim they "provide the street"? The street is a public road, not something extra that the Federal facility itself made available.

 

hyrax, I would submit this thread for you to look at why we should always be armed:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6410
RugerShooter, Do you think it is fair for them to claim they "provide the street"? The street is a public road, not something extra that the Federal facility itself made available.

Is the street "reasonably proximate". Is there any reason why the street doesn't make a good alternative parking option?

 

I wouldn't say the street is unreasonably proximate to the parking lot - I suppose it would be the same situation if they had a sectioned off lot. There would be less cars there and I think that is my main concern. However, if they provided a lot where a perp would have to walk through the normal lot to get to it, then that person's getaway wouldn't be as smooth.

I just hate all these 'rules' that they think keep us safe. They allow unchecked backpacks to enter the facility and anyone could hold up an employee for their ID badge to get into the door. :disgusted:

But me being the good boy, I follow the stupid 'rules that keep us safe'.

 

I wouldn't say the street is unreasonably proximate to the parking lot - I suppose it would be the same situation if they had a sectioned off lot.

I don't think it's really right for them to say they've "provided" the street as alternate parking, but I think if the question were to end up in court, the judge would look at you and say "So there's a place for you to park where you can keep your gun, and it's not an undue burden on you for you to park there... what's your problem?". There is a legal rule called the "de minimis" rule, which basically means that courts don't bother themselves with trivialities, and I think that's what the judge would apply, unless you could offer some reason why parking on the street is a problem.

But me being the good boy, I follow the stupid 'rules that keep us safe'.

I hear ya.

 

hyrax, I would submit this thread for you to look at why we should always be armed:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6410

RugerShooter, Do you think it is fair for them to claim they "provide the street"? The street is a public road, not something extra that the Federal facility itself made available.

No, I don't think that's fair, I am just saying that might be what they think. I personally don't think they should be able to restrict anybody (except fellons) from carrying a gun anyway they want to. CCP's should not be needed to carry a gun.

 

the judge would look at you and say "So there's a place for you to park where you can keep your gun, and it's not an undue burden on you for you to park there... what's your problem?".

Yeah, I guess the only reason I would have is my perception that cars on the street are more likely to be vandalized/broken into than those grouped within a parking lot.

As my Biology professor says: "Every one of you has a map in their head about how the world works. It may not be the best map, but it's yours."

 

the judge would look at you and say "So there's a place for you to park where you can keep your gun, and it's not an undue burden on you for you to park there... what's your problem?".

Yeah, I guess the only reason I would have is my perception that cars on the street are more likely to be vandalized/broken into than those grouped within a parking lot.

Hmm. Your perception may well be correct. I wonder if there's somewhere you can get some numbers to show one way or the other...

As my Biology professor says: "Every one of you has a map in their head about how the world works. It may not be the best map, but it's yours."

Too true! And so much of dealing effectively with other people is trying to get an idea what their map looks like.

 

I have to ask, what did you do to protect yourself before you carried a firearm?

 

I have to ask, what did you do to protect yourself before you carried a firearm?

I'm sure you're asking RapidDave, but I'll answer. Nothing in particular. Why?

But, then, I don't really carry for protection, exactly. I very much doubt that I'll ever be in a situation where I need a gun for self-defense; the way I live my life, the odds of that happening are miniscule and not worth the effort, expense and hassle of carrying.

I carry for two reasons: First, because I think there's strong evidence that the more lawful carriers there are, the less violent crime there is. So I carry to fulfill what I see as a civic duty. Second, because I can. A right unexercised is a right lost, and as I'm a firm believer in the individual right to keep and bear arms, I feel it's important to bear arms. Daily. Openly most of the time, but concealed when open carry is inconvenient.

Dave has his own reasons, I'm sure, but if I were in his shoes I would absolutely not be willing to go unarmed, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable position. Of course, I do crazy things like checking luggage so that I can take a gun to California, even though the only place I can legally possess it is in my hotel room -- the place I am least likely to need it, particularly since I keep the door locked and chained (or whatever you call it when you close that little hinged latch thing), and always use the peep before opening up. I do it because I have a right to. That's a good enough reason and no other justification is required.

 

It's not very comforting as far as your point about arming a criminal, but I do take some comfort in knowing that my weapon is insured through NRA if it is stolen from my locked vehicle. They provide to their members up to $1000 of insurance for your firearms if they're stolen from a locked portion of your vehicle or (I believe) from your home. But I would agree with getting a small strong box that you can fasten down in your car. If I have to leave a weapon in my car I hide it in the trunk and change a switch in my trunk that won't allow it to be opened with the in-cab lever. That way someone has to have the key or do some serious prying.

 

Even though I have a CFP, I would assume I would have to "securely encase" my firearm when entering the facility. Does this include unloading it or could I just lock it up? How much do I have to do before I'm not liable if it is stolen? Can I ever not be liable for a stolen firearm? :huh:

 

ummm, bump?? Someone please answer my question 1 post above.

 

The risk is up to you. I suppose something would have to happen to your weapon and the law get involved before you will know what is what and what they decide to do. I have seen posts on here about guys leaving there weapon under the seat, in the center consoul or glove box both locked and unlocked. For me personally I use the COM type safe purchased from Cabela's. Its under the drivers seat and the cable is attached to the seat frame. It would take some prying to get into the box or a set of cable cutters to cut the cable. Its not just a smash and grab. I feel this protects my weapon and I am able to have my weapon with me coming and going from work as well as after work honey do's. The risk and choice is yours. You never posted what town you are working in and or the quality of the area so its hard to say weather the risk of leaving the weapon in your car is worth it or not. As to unloading the weapon its your choice.

 

Even though I have a CFP, I would assume I would have to "securely encase" my firearm when entering the facility. Does this include unloading it or could I just lock it up? How much do I have to do before I'm not liable if it is stolen? Can I ever not be liable for a stolen firearm? :huh:

Personally I would just get a lockable (with a key) safe to put in the car. Which I did. I bought an in-car-safe from Center of Mass, LLC. You can either use the cable that comes with it to wrap around your car seat frame, much like muddy said, or it has a couple holes drilled in the bottom so that you can screw or bolt it down. Depending on what kind of vehicle you drive, either would be a good option. I have an SUV, so I don't really have anywhere that I can screw it down that would be easily accessible, and that wouldn't be noticed. If you have a car with a trunk, maybe you could screw it in somewhere in there, where it isn't easily seen, but easily accessible.
You wouldn't be responsible for a stolen gun. Just make sure you report it to the police. I would also recommend writing down the Serial number (if you haven't already) and give that to the police as well, so that if they find it they can get it back to you. Otherwise, you are pretty much SOL on getting it back.

 

I haven't posted the town because I don't feel it is relevant to the discussion. I believe crime can happen anywhere at any time, so it is never outside the realm of possibility to me that my firearm could be stolen from my vehicle.

I was under the impression a firearm had to be securely encased when you stepped out of your vehicle (locked and unloaded). Are you guys under the impression this is not the case?

 

I haven't posted the town because I don't feel it is relevant to the discussion. I believe crime can happen anywhere at any time, so it is never outside the realm of possibility to me that my firearm could be stolen from my vehicle.

I was under the impression a firearm had to be securely encased when you stepped out of your vehicle (locked and unloaded). Are you guys under the impression this is not the case?

Do you mean if you were to take your gun in to work? or stepping out of your vehicle in general? If you mean taking it in to work, I would secure it before going on to the federal property. However, I would just leave it in the safe in my vehicle....

 

I mean anytime I ever step out of my vehicle and no one else is in it, must it be securely encased? Look at Utah Gun Law 3rd edition for the securely encased definition.

 

The only thing that I can remember reading about a gun being in a car, is one of the new laws about parking lots. It says that the firearm cannot be in plain sight. I have not read anything that says that your gun needs to be securely locked up. However, it is a really good idea to do so. I was always really nervous to leave my gun in my vehicle when I didn't have a little safe in there. I would always unload it, and put the gun in one place, and the ammo somewhere else, not that it would really keep the BG from finding both, but at least it would take them more time to find both. If it is your vehicle, you are welcome to leave it unsecured. But I highly recommend getting some sort of locking box for it if you plan on leaving it in there. Otherwise throughout the day, probably the only thing you will be able to think about is your unsecured firearm. If I am wrong, I'm sure Divegeek will correct me, but I just did another glance at the law, and can't find anywhere it says it has to be secured if you are not in the vehicle. I don't have much time to really go over the laws right now, but I'll check on it later when I have more time.